Does anyone know if Medieval Federschwerts had scabbards like regular swords, and if so, what they looked like?
I've never seen any evidence to suggest that this was common practice, if done at all. There aren't that many surviving examples of practice swords, and to my knowlwedge none of them have scabbards, nor have I seen anything in period literature or fencing treatises to suggest them.
Just so you know, the term "federschwert" is not a period term. I know I'm being a little pedantic in bringing that up, but its kind of like saying "platemail" or using the term broadsword to describe Viking weapons, etc, which are incorrect terms.
Just so you know, the term "federschwert" is not a period term. I know I'm being a little pedantic in bringing that up, but its kind of like saying "platemail" or using the term broadsword to describe Viking weapons, etc, which are incorrect terms.
What was the type called?
Bill Love wrote: |
What was the type called? |
Well, they were just called practice swords. :) The term "federschwert" means "feather sword", and it appears to be a 19th century term.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...triumpfzug
The second picture shows fencers with their swords sheated.
The second picture shows fencers with their swords sheated.
Werner Stiegler wrote: |
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13201&highlight=triumpfzug
The second picture shows fencers with their swords sheated. |
I respectfully disagree. That picture looks more as if they have the bare blades over their shoulders. The central ridge is the attempt by the artist to show the spine, while the crescent shaped tip is the attempt to show the thickened and blunted tip.
Edited to change hollow grind to spine.
Last edited by Jonathan Blair on Tue 19 Aug, 2008 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total
I agree with Jonathon that those do not look like they have scabbards to me. In fact, if you look at the first picture in the link, you will see swords with the same appearance on the blade, but with the leather covered ricasso. If they were scabbarded, it would mean that the leather on the ricasso was outside of the scabbard.
Where is the quote "fencers with their swords sheathed" from?
Where is the quote "fencers with their swords sheathed" from?
I have to back up Stiegler. Those are scabbards with seams and chapes on both the federschwerter and two-handers. Federschwerter don't have spines and aren't hollow ground as this would thin the edges and stiffen the the blades making them far more dangerous to practice with while simultaneously shortening their working lives. In the case of the two-handers I think they are scabbarded up to the leather covered ricassos without extending under the leather. Since the swords are only being carried over the shoulder and not worn such would be adequate.
In the first photo in the link, at least a few of those appear to be scabbards, since it looks like there are some clearly defined chapes on the second and third blades from the right.
Allen W wrote: |
Federschwerter don't have spines and aren't hollow ground as this would thin the edges and stiffen the the blades making them far more dangerous to practice with while simultaneously shortening their working lives. |
While I have never seen any practice swords with a spine, they are sometimes illustrated this way. The images in Goliath show this:
[ Linked Image ]
As do the images in the Peter Falkner manuscript (which I don't have an online source to link to, sorry). I know I've seen others, but I'd have to search through my books (I'm not at home at the moment).
Further, I don't think those are chapes at the points: Those appear to be points that are forged to be thicker for safety. This is commonly seen on surviving swords of this type. The Hanwei "Federschwert" reproduces the same feature.
Ed Toton wrote: |
In the first photo in the link, at least a few of those appear to be scabbards, since it looks like there are some clearly defined chapes on the second and third blades from the right. |
I see what you mean, on the figures on the right, though I was referring to the person on the left of the image, who doesn't appear to have a scabbard on his sword, unless if the ricasso covering actually goes over it.
To me, if you look at the first plate, the figures look like they are carrying scabbarded swords (and that does seem like chapes), but nothing tells us that those are longsword foils, nor do they look like it.
The second image clearly has longsword foils being carried, and they also seem to be clearly sans any scabbard.
The second image clearly has longsword foils being carried, and they also seem to be clearly sans any scabbard.
Well Bill you have me on the spines of the federschwerter although those in the "Triumph" appear wider than on the page you displayed. The "Triumph" blades also show marks along the blade and near the hilt that suggest tooling to me and in some cases possibly stitching. I also see very simple chapes like this occasionally depicted on katzbalger scabbards.
Bill Grandy wrote: |
Where is the quote "fencers with their swords sheathed" from? |
I can't quiet remember why I decided to call them "fencers", just disregard that.
If you go to ARMA's website they have a fantastic collection of images in the their Renaissance web documentary, and quite a few of them show practice swords with obvious spines. Some of them may very well have started their lives as type XV or XVIII longswords that were later converted to trainers due to excessive or unrepairable wear or edge damage. This practice of re-purposing worn weapons is well documented historically and notable as late as World War II when shot-out Enfield SMLEs were converted to everything from drill pieces to grenade launchers. I personally know of at least one tent stake that began life as a cavalry saber, so stranger things have happened.
Execution swords often had scabbards, so there is at least a precedent for scabbards not meant to be worn.
Werner Stiegler wrote: | ||
|
This is fascinating! Where can I find the contract between Maximillian and the artist? I've often wondered how this era's art was commissioned. Any info regarding this part of the transaction would be greatly appreciated!
Werner Stiegler wrote: | ||
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I'll definately accept that, then. Though I don't think its hard proof of scabbards on practice swords. I still will say that these look like standard practice swords without scabbards. I'm certainly willing to accept that I'm wrong about that, but it could just as easily be a case where the artist didn't illustrate exactly what was commissioned. *shrug*
Allen W wrote: |
Well Bill you have me on the spines of the federschwerter although those in the "Triumph" appear wider than on the page you displayed. The "Triumph" blades also show marks along the blade and near the hilt that suggest tooling to me and in some cases possibly stitching. I also see very simple chapes like this occasionally depicted on katzbalger scabbards. |
Even if these are scabbards, marks on the ricasso of these swords aren't unheard of. See attached.
Attachment: 115.55 KB
[ Download ]
Nathan Robinson wrote: |
This is fascinating! Where can I find the contract between Maximillian and the artist? I've often wondered how this era's art was commissioned. Any info regarding this part of the transaction would be greatly appreciated! |
Dürers sketches for the Triumpfzug are still around, I believe. The textual part of the contract was quiet often written on the backside of these, but I do not know whether that's the case with the Triumpfzug too.
Upon re-reading it appeared that, what I've posted is not the contract but the programm of the Triumpzug dictated by Maximilian to his secretary in 1512, decades before the woodcuts were completed. He called the part a "Vechterey", which is why I assumed that the people on the woodcut in question are indeed fencers with training swords. I'll just post the whole description, maybe there's somebody around who can make sense of it.
Quote: |
Vechterey Item darnach solle einer Reiten vnd beclaidt sein wie ain Vechtmaister lusstig vnd soll die Remtafel fueren. Item Herr Hans Hollywars solle Vechtmaister sein vnd sein Reim auf die maynung gestelt werden: Wie er hab nach adenlicher Art das gefecht aus des kaisers öffnung an seinem hof aufgericht. Das frölich Ritterlich gefecht hab Ich gemehrt, wie Ir dann secht, in aller Ritterlicher Wehr allain nach Kaiserlichen ger nach Zettels art wie sichs gebürt darin den rechten grundt man spürt. Item das gefecht solt gestellt werden, vnnd albeg fünf personnen neben ainander in ordnung, wie hernach volgt, alle zu fueß. Fünf personnen mit Tryschl. (flails) Fünf personnen mit kurtzen stanngen. Fünf personnen mit lanntzen Fünf personnen mit helmpart Fünf personnen mit streytaxt Fünf personnen mit Pugkler, die sollen haben lanng degen plos in der hanndt. Fünf personnen mit tärtschln, die sollen haben messer auch plos. Fünf personnen mit pafeßen, die sollen haben vnngrisch koller. Fünf personnen mit swertern in den Schaidten vber die Achseln. Item die personen alle sollen die lobrenntzle aufhaben. |
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