I have an old backsword blade and associated (and damaged) guard I'd like to do something with. I got tired of my last mounting, in an English style of the mid-17th c., and wondered if I could back it up to ca. 1500-1525. Looking at some German and Italian weapons of the period gave me some hilt ideas which I roughed out in clay.

What you see below is meant to model an octagonal wooden grip with pommel plate. The guard consists of two side rings and short, recurved quillons . I haven't done much to the quillons here--just hacked 'em off and recurved them enough to test the concept. They'd be more splayed and rounded at their ends and very thin. I could easily cut off the inside side ring. If I proceed, I might finish the grip with a cord-impressed black wrap. The pommel, delineated by a line in the clay in my rough model, would be a .25" thick octagonal plate, bent slightly and surmounted by a peen block or nut.

Some of my inspiration images are here as well, but I've never seen anything exactly like it. That's why I'd like your help. Have any of you seen an historical weapon of similar design? Is it at least plausible for the period and culture?

I can't decide whether or not to proceed with a project that's only historical-ish. I'd love some feedback on the design or suggestions for other, more historically documentable uses for the blade or guard (keeping in mind that welding or shaping large blocks of steel are out of the question for me--files and Dremel are my main options).

Any info or advice is welcome. All opinions are welcome, from intense disgust to rapture. :lol:

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A single side ring makes it a bit less Katzbalger-ish. Maybe looks less in conflict with traditional Katzbalger design?

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I like where you're going with this, Sean. Simple, yet very historical - kind of a common man's side arm. :cool:

Hmmm.... Looks pretty cool. I really like where you're going with this. I couldn't find anything exactly like it but these are close(ish). There's 2 links to the albums and 2 which I posted from my files. Hope they help.

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....mp;pos=182

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/displayimage....&pos=9

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Thanks for the images, Tim. Yes, those large, messer-like swords offer some precedent, as do those Italian infantry swords. I may proceed with the project. Actually, I spent a small amount of time on the guard and pommel this weekend, just to see if I could get past those obstacles. The first thing I noticed was that I had carelessly recurved the quillons the wrong way! :cry: I thought that might kill the project because I didn't think these could withstand their third cold reshaping. They survived, and I even got as far as shaping the terminals. I now have the pommel blank as well. I probably won't decide about the inboard side ring until I have the grip and can do a rough assembly. I'll have something to show, eventually. Can't say how long it will survive, though!

I don't know anything about this piece (posted earlier in response to another of my many questions,) but if I had to guess I'd guess that everything above the guard is a reconstruction or associated. Still, the pommel plate is interesting, if authentic.

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Here's what I have so far. As you can see, the tang is still unpeened although everything is nice and tight. Final assembly this weekend, with JB Weld and peen. The peen will be flush with the top of the nut/washer/block and sanded smooth. I think this turned out pretty well for an imaginary German/Italian sword of ca. 1525. At least there's no pesky original around to mock my attempt.:lol: I think this would look good with a scabbard and by-knife.

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Sean, that rocks! It really turned out like you were talking about, and yes, It'd really go good with a by-knife in it's scabbard. Let's see that take form! :cool:

Very impressive Sean! I think you did a great job! I'd love to see a full length shot if I could. Just curious, how comfortable is the faceted grip?

Well done, Sean! You really have a talent for these types of projects. And here's another vote for the scabbard and by-knife!

Thanks! I'll get some better shots, including full-length and back, as soon as it's done.

The grip is very comfortable and secure, but I think a grip of this section and profile might be easier to get wrong than some other types. More than any other I've made, section, profile and length seem to be very obviously linked. If one of those aspects is wrong, the whole thing feels wrong. In particular, I had to figure out the interconnectedness of length and taper. If it expands or flares too dramatically too low on the grip it can feel very awkward. The clay model was very helpful but I had to fine-tune the wooden version to find the right relationships. Judging only from my experience here, the hand should fit comfortably on the part of the grip just below the most dramatic flaring of the profile. Slight concavity of the narrow sides of the grip is very helpful.

Facets are a challenge, and mine certainly aren't perfect. Holding the rectangular-section grip before faceting, it's hard to imagine that it could turn out properly. Even after the facets are cut, there's work to be done in making the profile slightly concave and softening the edges of the facets. All of that makes a noticeable difference in the hand. On top of that (literally) is the leather wrap, which can add just enough to make things feel better or worse. Better in this case.

As far as I know my grip is merely inspired by different historical ideas and not representative of any documented example. But, if nothing else, I now see more of the ergonomic logic behind the design of some original grips, especially Katzbalger grips. Due to some careless passes with a Surform tool my first attempt at this grip turned out more like the almost pyramidal grip in one of the antique images I posted earlier. It was almost finished at that point, but the patient could not be saved. It did, however, give me the opportunity to feel what that short and sharply tapered grip might feel like. I didn't care for it, so I'd have to experiment a bit to figure out why that seems to have been used in the case of the aforementioned antique.

By the way, this sword began life as a Windlass "Scottish Backsword" and, after many minor grip changes and one aborted project, became a proto-mortuary sword. It loses length with every project. By 2010 it'll probably be a Scottish dirk! :lol:

Nice work Sean. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the scabbard and by knife.

I find that one of the most important factors in making such a piece look "right" is proportions. A badly proportioned grip or guard can make an otherwise fine sword look a tad silly but you've made this one look authentic, even if it is an "imaginary" sword.

Darren.