Some sword brands feature dismountable hilts, which are not historical for medieval swords. It wasn't that important to our ancestors, even though they could have made dismountable hilts at certain points in history, but some people are very loyal to the idea.

The common reasons people give for liking dismountable swords are:

1) Easier customization.
2) To inspect the tang for damage.
3) To clean the tang for maintenance.

I can see the attraction to #1 above, though often people want to customize the sword because it isn't very historical in appearance to start with.

Regarding #2, has anyone discovered something while inspecting the tang that made them glad they dismounted the sword to check? In the years I've been talking about and learning about swords, sword failures have happened on a number of occasions and have been reported (sometimes widely) on sites like this one. But I can't recall a case where the damage may have been visible beforehand. Discounting totally historically accurate swords, most of the failures seem to be the result of bad internal grain structure (bad heat treat) which wouldn't be visible. So I'm curious what inspecting the tang would find. Has anyone seens cracks and things that they were glad they found before the next cut?

Reason #3 puzzles me. It would takes years of a bad situation for a tang to rust through. And a buildup of oxidization can actually be protective in many cases. Keeping it clean keeps that layer from building up. Cleaning with Scotch-Brite or something can actually remove metal, potentially altering the fit slightly if cleaned too often.

I guess I'd like the tang inspectors and cleaners to weigh in on why dismountability is so important to them and how dismounting the sword has prevented issues from arising. :)

I have dismounted at least 2 swords and found cracks and other flaws in the tang, that I can recall offhand. I know this is not typical but on the other hand it does happen and I have 2 blades here that prove it. After these experiences I think it is just common sense to be able to inspect the tang on a sword that will be used for any cutting or sparring excersizes, particularly on lower end swords where the integrity is perhaps less reliable/predictable. An Albion or A&A I would be less concerned about but with lower end imports I think it is a good idea.

Eric beat me to the punch on reason 4. To me reason 5 is that peened swords when put through a lot of practice work will eventually loosen and need to be fixed. Also, in my climate (desert) it is not unusual to see wood grips shrink enough that the sword hilt becomes noticeably loose. I have examined many antiques and many do show the effects of repeated re-grinding and re-peening on the end of the tang. BTW, having cold peened a number of swords myself, its not exactly rocket science but its also easy to screw up and do some damage

The other issue is hilt customization, Chad you imply that primarily this is done to "pretty-up" swords or do unhistorical things to them (which I admit to being guilty of more than once) but there are also very legitimate reasons to modify hilts, particularly handles. I have rather big hands and long fingers and prefer a thicker handle than a lot of folks. Historically, handles vary quite a lot and were probably made to order in many cases. The advantage of a dismountable hilt is I can experiment with the handle a little and adjust it to my preference.... again dismountable hilts on historical reproduction swords appeal to the person who is concerned about historical accuracy and performance but is slightly more interested in performance as a practicing martial artist. plus some of us just like to tinker. ;)

now for the philosophy side. There seems to be an attitude in this community at times that swords are anachronistic implements for the 21st century, therefore why do we need to try to improve them. :eek: I just want to say that I strongly disagree with that whole hypothesis, i think martial arts as a personal discipline and means for personal growth and refinement, is, if anything, more important today than it has been in the recent past....... i can go into many reasons why I believe that is the case but i don't want to hijack the thread. bear with me with my stupid analogy, but its a bit like asking why bother with computer chip controlled fuel injection if henry ford made cars "back in the day" and they ran just fine with only carburators. Or why does Phelps have a special NASA designed swimsuit since Spitz won all of his medals without one........ what i am trying to say is that for some of us, the sword is just one small part of a martial arts system. the martial arts systems continue to evolve, as they should. therefore the sword will evolve too.... does that make sense? I don't mean to go overboard here but it all comes down to how you expect to use the sword and there are definite advantages of both ways of securing the hilt. excellent question really and I am sure there will be a lot of variable opinions. this is just my $0.02 tr

Regarding customizing, there are two things I like about the system Gus and Tinker use. First is that you can have some historically correct hilt furniture, but use the same blade to create a more fantasy/LOTR look. Its just for fun, nothing more. Regarding other changes, it is a lot easier to antique a hilt on your own if you dismount it. I prefer if I want an antique look to do it myself, so ease os assembly is prefered.

No argument put forth here, just a reason why I might do it and prefer that assembly.

The answers to your questions will vary depending on what a person is using a sword for. I know typically stage combat is not discussed often here, but here is the a point of view from some one who buys and makes sword for both stage combat and general sparring, and even some cutting swords from time to time.

1) I can't see customization being important to people sparring or using swords for cutting exercises. However, for stage combat, you may have a show where you need a fancy hilted sword, and the next week, you may want to use the same blade but use a much less fancy sword depending on the character you are playing at the time. It is nice to be able to change out hilts and not have to buy a new blade, as the blade is by far the most expensive part of a well made sword.

2) Inspecting for damage... I hadn't really inspect tangs for damage in the first 10 years or so stage combat and martial arts sword usage. I did inspect them initially to see how they were constructed and if they were adequate for stage or sparring work, but thats about it. My first experience of "routine inspection" was in JSA, when we were required to inspect the tang before and after each cutting exercises classes. It was very very rare, but I did see one sword that was not mine develope some hair line cracks in it. Needless to say, the sword was no longer used. After witnessing this, I did make a habit of inspecting tangs on stage blades before shows and such, and I have actually caught about 3 or 4 swords in the past few years that did have some small cracks would have probably broken in the near future. It never hurts to look.

3)Cleaning for maintenance... another one I can see many martial art or cutting exercise sword not needing. However, if you are doing a stage show outside, and if you have to do the show rain or shine, or in the mud or on a beach, and it's raining cats and dogs and your sword is caked in mud... it's nice to be able to disassemble it to clean the tang off and reoil it . I have swords that I was not able to disassemble, and when I finally stopped using them, I did find a way to disassemble them, and the tang was heavily and thoroughly rusted most of the time.

4) Jean hit a big one. Any bolted or peened tang sword that is a compression hilt, is much better for a stage combat person. A compression hilt can always be re-tightened if it comes loose, by either re-tightening the bolt, or repeening the tang. The bolt being much easier for most people. However, a sandwich style hilt with a pressed guard and pommel, just like Albions, can not be retightened at all. So when it comes loose, there is nothing you can really do about it. I know some people will say they "never" come loose, and sure, one in a thousand may "never" come loose, but for the most part, every sword will loosen up if used in stage combat, even if it's used with perfect technique. It's a matter of mechanics in steel, guards will loosen by the forces and stress exerted on them during the shocks and vibrations the sword goes through in use, even in minor impacts. Historically, this probably didn't matter much, or maybe it did, I really don't know. However, I do know that it does matter big time for stage combat.

I personally prefer a bolted tang now for just for ease of hilt change out (which i do often!) and grip customizations.

One thing to note, I have noticed that most makers who use a tang bolt, use too small of a bolt, either a 1/4" or sometime even smaller. For my swords, I use a 3/8" bolt, much larger and able to hold a much higher preload. I did this because the preload force applied by a 1/4" peened tang (historical), does not equal a 1/4" threaded tang and nut. The 1/4" peen has a much larger preload force and holding capacity. After running some numbers, and eventually just doing tons of testing, I came to the conclusion that the larger 3/8" bolt has close to the same preload force compare to the 1/4" peened tang. Under heavy sword to sword use, 1/4" and even 5/16" would come loose under use, however the 3/8" remained tight through all the tests. I noticed that the company Lutel must of have done similar test because they use a similar bolt setup, but it's in metric, not english units, not sure the metric size, but it is very close to the 3/8 size I use.

Interesting. People have always talked about wanting to inspect a tang for damage, but I hadn't really heard any reports that the inspection was doing any good. What brands are these that people are reporting cracks and flaws in the tang? That is good info for the public to know.

Thanks to all who have proposed other reasons for having a dismountable sword. But.... :)

What I'm really interested in is the tang inspection/maintenance aspect as well as whether people have experienced increasingly sloppy fit in their components from repeated disassembly and cleaning.

I cited those three examples as the most common ones I've seen touted, and was not trying to build any kind of all-inclusive list. :)

Hopefully you have read my first post on this. as a continuation and to further answer your question:

Swords I have seen cracked tangs on during an inspection:
Hanwei Practical XL Katana
Chen Practical Rapier blades (probably due to mis-use)
Triplette Rapier Blades (again, probably due to mis-use)
Chen Practical Hand and half (2 generation) *this is a peened blade, cracks noticed when wood grip was removed due to a crack in the wood grip
Starfire 21" short sword, *this is a welded guard and pommel design, tang cracks notices when a rewrap was applied
Chen basket hilt backsword, older model, screw pommel, not sure how old

Hope this helps.

Funny - I was thinking of a related thing earlier today. I think this is close enough not to deflect the topic too much.

I was wondering how often medeival swords were "regripped". I'm betting that if a sword hilt or grip became cracked or loose in some way that affected performance, that you would just get a cuttler to replace it. I wonder if this was done regularly, fairly often, or almost never. Labor was cheap, and so was the material needed to regrip a sword - if it was important, I see no reason that you would not get a professional to do it for you. If it were done regularly, any problem with the tang might be noticed in that process...

Gordon

Me, I want to drive a car that I don't have to think about. I don't want to open that hood except in dire emergency, and I own cars with reputations for resisting dire emergencies. Other folks might as well take the hoods off their cars they spend so much time tinkering. In this case, I figure I'm like most historical sword users--Pay a professional for the best quality you can afford and don't mess with it.

With arms and armour I'm just the opposite. It would spoil my fun and education to just buy something perfect. And disassembly, for me, is about my personal education. Why did the manufacturer do things this way instead of that way? How soft is the tang? How does assembly affect stats and feel? Are modern techniques better than historical? In this case I'm probably more like an historical apprentice cutler than an historical sword user.

So, you'd think I want easy disassembly. Nope. I benefit from undoing all kinds of assembly, but ultimately I want to own an historically assembled piece.

I've learned lots about tangs by disassembling swords but I've never spotted any significant flaws.

Of course, to a true tinkerer, every sword is easily disassembled. :D

I say, if you really want to know what's going on under there, you should invest the time, thought and energy required to disassemble a properly built sword. If you have the kind of sword that might have a defective tang, you're probably going to want to refinish the blade and hilt furniture and make a new grip anyway. So, what's a few minutes filing a peen?