Hello all,

I wouldn't start axe work with 'La Jeu', but with Kal, Talhoffer, and Falkner for the German school, and Fiore, Vadi, and the Anonymous Bolognese treatise for those working with the Italian tradition.

La Jeu has some ambiguities in the technical terminology that we don't fully understand yet - for one, some question whether the 'queue' is really the extreme tail end of the weapon, or the haft in general. La Jeu is a great text, and has some really interesting and unique things, such as dealing with left-handers, but it's better approached from a more seasoned vantage point. I'd learn some poleaxe basics before playing with it.

Kal & Talhoffer on the other hand show opposing guards, basic parries, and sundry follow-on actions with both the blade/hammer and the points. Falkner, who I hope to bring to print sooner than later, shows some neat plays, including one that drives up the butt from lower right to parry a high attack. Finally, there's a little-known anonymous German text on the axe that appears in the addenda of the Vienna copy of Kal - this will appear in my next book, along with photographic interpretations. The Selohaar Fechtschule's poleaxe curriculum draws from all of the above sources.

As I said above, the Italian sources include Fiore, Vadi, and the 'Anonymous Bolognese' treatise. Fiore gets a bad rap regarding the poleaxe, with some citing that includes only a handful of plays and therefore "Fiore doesn't like the axe." That's misleading, as he has already laid out the principles you need for most weapons by this point in his highly self-referential treatise - all he's doing, or needs to do, in the axe section is give you those things that are specific concerns for that weapon...the rest you already should know. Vadi, I believe, largely follows those plays shown by Fiore - but we have the blessing of a high-quality facsimile and translation already available in English.

The Anonymous Bolognese text is apparently a fantastic source for the axe and the Chicago Swordplay Guild's Greg Mele draws much of his axe instruction from it. If you're interested in that, I'd suggest dropping him a line.

As for Waldman...he's probably drawing from Anglo's opinion, which is nothing short of bizarre to me. Anglo says that that the poleaxe seems relatively harmless to armoured opponents. It's really the complete opposite, and so much so that making a 'safe' poleaxe simulator for bouting is all but impossible; anything shaped like a poleaxe generally performs like one: dangerously! Control, and respect for the weapon, are a must, even in substantial harness. That's likely why it was the province of real hard-case tourniers like Jacques de Lailang. And Dr. Anglo must clearly be ignoring the gazillion manuscript illustrations showing these weapons wielded in battle, some of which have been posted here.

It's too bad, because most of Waldman's book is outstanding. I wish there was more, and more accurate, stuff on the poleaxe. I would however call his study of the halberd 'definitive'.

All the best,

Christian

Anglo! I knew I'd seen this idea somewhere before but couldn't recall where. I'll put in yet another plug for Waldman, though. Get his book while you can, folks! You might think it's expensive now, but just wait a few years.

I think the main thing to remember with the axe is that you'll need to survey a few sources to really round out your curriculum, as only Le Jeu treats the poleaxe a principle weapon.

Christian already hit all of the basic axe sources. Pietro Monte also includes a bit here and there on the axe, but it isn't really a system he is presenting.

The Anonymous Bolognese author's axe treatise is really an ideal starting point for the Italian tradition, as it reduces the system to two guards - each with a right or left lead variant - and basically divides it's corpus into several short sequences on how to strike first with the head, and then how to counter that, how to right with the axe head forward and use the hooks of the weapon, and finally, how to use feints and the like. You learn a couple of cool, fundamental throws and disarms, and a unique counter to the collar throw. All in all a very concise system, and easy to then pick up dei Liberi's instructions.

Speaking of Fiore, here is a fun fact. The "Lord Galeot" mentioned presiding over the duel between Richard Beauchamp and Pandolfo Malatesta is Galeazzo da Mantova - one of dei Liberi's students, and himself known for his spear duel with Marshal Bouccicault. Small world, eh? ;)

Thank you so far.
Is there alink or other source for the Bolognese manuscript?

Hi Fab!

Fabrice Cognot wrote:

Well if I can help on that specific point, Christian : there is no ambiguity in Le Noble Jeu de la Hache about what is the queue : the extreme tail of the weapon (the part of the haft under your left hand, if you hold it 'right-handed'). There might be ambiguities in Anglo's translation, however, which might have led people to think what you state. But reading from the original French, it's quite clear.

Ok, good to know. I don't work with La Jeu anymore (it's been, oh, five years now), so I've only heard what I've heard second hand. I must say that only makes sense, as I recall no other technical term there that *would* have been the tail of the axe, were it not 'queue'.

EDIT: I just realized that I've stupidly been referencing the wrong thing - it's the demy-hache that I'd heard debated, not the queue! Can you give me your current read on exactly what part of the axe this refers to?

Quote:

Also : Le Jeu does not deal with left-handers per se, but with people holding their poleaxe with their left hand near the 'big end' - as sometimes you see it appearing in period sources, chronicles, fictional works and the like.

That too makes more sense - thanks. The most common matchup between guards, after all, in German texts is one guy in vom Tag, with his right hand leading on the axe vs. another in what looks most like Nebenhut on the left, his left hand leading.

Quote:

Le Jeu is an excellent starting point for poleaxe, IMO, as it contains the basics, the advanced and the something-in-between. It covers quite exhaustively the use of this weapon (leaving aside wrestling with the poleaxe however), dealing with all of the possible situations you might encounter (ie 'tour de bras' vs the 'head' guard, tournde bras vs the 'tail' guard, thrusts with the dagger against 'head' guard, and so on, and so on) in a very organised, well-thought way.

From my days with it, it did seem the positioning of the guars was ambiguous. If I'm missing something here, can you cite a passage where the actual positioning is described?

In any case, I'm glad there are folks working still with this unique Burgundian work - the only thing we have from that part of Europe from the late medieval period, to my knowledge.

Thanks for the info!

All the best,

Christian

Thanks Fab - perhaps we'll get to talk more about this after Dijon. Have fun at the event!

All the best,

Christian