How much did the average lance weigh? Was the tip sharp like a spear or dull? Would they have shattered on impact? Would they be used as anything more than a first strike weapon?


This a lance for horseback by the way. And I am talking about war lances.

thanx

Not sure on the weight, but I doubt they would have (intentionally) shattered in combat. The tip would have been pointed, but I doubt it would have an actual blade on it. It's purpose is to be able to charge an opponent, and strike enemies before their weapons can strike you, true to the purpose of shock cavalry. If you kept riding through, you could use the lance again.

M.

Sorry Michael, but to ask such a question would be like asking "what sword would a knight have used in combat :eek:

What i mean by that is, you need to be more specific I.E. time period even country in some sercomstances ...
There are so many variations to the lance .Its length ,its weight ,its type of tip even the type of wood they were made out of "O" and don't forget shape .
The other problem is because they were made of wood there isn't a lot of them left and nearly all information is gained from paintings of the periods .You can only guess the type of wood and weight .Also because you are talking about war lances ,no body kept war lances in stock for long periods of time because the wood they were usually made of would go brittle over time and the laces then become useless.
There are some lances scattered around some of the European armour collections
I do know that the tower has some of Henry V111 lances but these are Tournament lances .
Drawings and paintings are your best source of information .
Google "Battle of Romano " War lances Mid 15th century
" the Knight ,death and the devil "Albright Durer late 15th century
There is also a small wooden statue somewere with a 14th century knight that is supposed to be really close to the truth .
There is also many good knowledgable folk on this forum that could mention more illustrations i'm sure .

Also don't forget ,just because it was a joust , --------Joust of peace (coronel tipped lance)
Then there was the joust of war -------here they used war lances with sharp points :eek: :eek: :eek: WAR LANCES

) You could always go to UTUBE Charles V Sir Graham -----------this was just a Balsa tip 11/4diameter square blunt end .

From my experience charging foot ....If the lance penitraits the dude on foot you keep pushing ,if there is another baddy behind him you try and make a kebab .Then you let go .Stop .Jump of your horse .Get someone to hold your horse for you ,just incase he decides to sciddadle out of the noise of battle .
You then recover your lace ,If it hasn't broken .Climb back on your horse and get the kind chap who was holding your horse for you ,to had you up the lance so you can go do it all again .

I would say one hit wonders -----This is why a knight carried a sword to ;)

Well the combat info is very useful, I guess what I'm asking with lances is, I would assume certain woods were used over others, and certain lengths were optimal, so just like if someone asked, how much did a sword weigh, we could say approx. 2-4lbs.

How much do the tournament lances weigh, and what are the differences between tournament and war lances.

Which time period? Earlier on there was no difference between tournament lances and war lances. Note that this was before the so-called "Age of Plate" when jousting mail was expected to resist repeated hits during tournaments from sharpened lances.

15th century please.

(I don't have my references handy - just my memory)

My understanding was that in combat you expected to break your lance when you hit the other guy. Failing to do so will unhorse you - Newton's laws of motion. Ideally as much force as possible ends up in the other guy and as the force "travels" up your own lance it breaks and none of the force ends up in you.

The necessity of squires on the battlefield was to hold your extra lances for subsequent charges (among other things). Coming back with an unbroken lance could be considered a sign of cowardice or failure.

Cheers,
Steven

Lots of interesting ideas are here. I have seen a least one post with a museum photograph of mixed war and peace lances here on the forums, about a year ago. The was a very obvious difference (diameter, point, etc..) In 12th/13th century era, tournament jousting descriptions included "shattering lances". A couple of German accounts mention the points penetrating through the shields in these sport contests (tyrociniums). I question the ability of mail to stop sharpened lance points? It does not seem intuitively obvious to me that mail would resist this kind of concentrated force. Some things can be surmised from poems. Several early 13th century literary works (early Lancelot epics) indicate that the point was expected to be removed (assume bare wood tips as many illuminations seem to depict) for the lance of peace as in practice jousting among friends. Tournament deaths from splinters penetrating the eye area sounded much like accidents (splinters, not sharp steel points running through the skull.)

A 15/16th century illustration of the Spanish lances used around the time of Hernando De Soto is in the book "Warrior's of the Sun." The lances depicted then really didn't look much different from war lances of 12th/13th century era. I have seen some lat era oil paintings of major battles that seem to depict heavy tournament style lances in real battle. This makes little sense to me. You can add a few pounds to the lance mass, but it will not be nearly as significant as the mass of the rider, the firmness of the grip, and the rider's speed ....in terms of what damage it could do. Making the lance heavy, in my opinion, just decreases it's maneuverability / versatility.

The evidence from the Royal Armoury at Leeds is that mail armour was nearly impervious to contemporary weapons. So we should expect most mail to usually resist a lance. But we know that not all mail was equal and some was better suited to this kind of attack; there existed mail labeled as double, triple, proof and tournament mail in period documents.

I'd assume that the purpose of a larger lance is to transfer more energy before it breaks.

Interesting topic.
-Steven

Well, there seems to be two real kinds of lance; one which you can couch but not thrust well with, and one which you can thrust with (resembling a spear).

M.

With regards to maille, there was an account of a Byzantine (I think?) knight or prince who had been knocked partly out of the saddle by a lance hit to his maille, and then knocked back in by another without any injury. And I recall another story referenced on these forums of a Frankish knight being unhorsed or clobbered in like manner with a lance to his maille, he was also unharmed. I'm sure someone remembers what I'm talking about, as I read it somewhere around these forums...

I bet their bruises were something, even with extensive padding, though!

Lances weren't always intended to shatter on impact. The Spanish in the New World, who used their lances almost solely against infantry, protected them desperately. Spanish lancers could route massive formations. A lance that broke after the first thrust would have been nearly useless to them.

perhaps they made it so that it broke on purpose so that they could have a shorter lance to use. but then again i dont know know much about this topic