Purely informational for myArmoury users so they know whats happening for the makers in the industry. As forcast last week, the price of steel has gone up today by another 12% ( up rougly 112% since 2006) and is forcast to go up again in the next 3 months. I hope this is the right place to post, appologies if I am incorrect.
Hm perhaps I will be wise to sell off those sheets I have hanging around!
M.
M.
As I was driving by the gas station the other day and noted the shockingly high price of diesel, I wondered how many ways it might impact our economy. I wonder if the steel prices and the cost of diesel fuel are related.
| Allen Andrews wrote: |
| As I was driving by the gas station the other day and noted the shockingly high price of diesel, I wondered how many ways it might impact our economy. I wonder if the steel prices and the cost of diesel fuel are related. |
Possibly. I'm certainly no expert on this, but if I recall correctly, the purification of iron ore requires a furnace, which could definitely be fueled by diesel or some other kind of fossil fuel, which are all pretty expensive these days.
Max
Hi
The industry that I am employed in, subsea oil and gas, has noticed a big up turn in steel prices too. I understand that much of the increase is due to the boom in the Chinese economy.
I further understand that there is an increase in theft of copper and steel from industrial sites / yards etc that is being sold on to unscrupulous dealers who then pass it on up the supply chain.
The industry that I am employed in, subsea oil and gas, has noticed a big up turn in steel prices too. I understand that much of the increase is due to the boom in the Chinese economy.
I further understand that there is an increase in theft of copper and steel from industrial sites / yards etc that is being sold on to unscrupulous dealers who then pass it on up the supply chain.
I think that one factor that is driving steel prices (and the other stuff mentioned) up in the USA is the declining US Dollar.
| Malcolm A wrote: |
| I understand that much of the increase is due to the boom in the Chinese economy. |
Yes, that demand is HUGE thus increasing the prices.
Fuel however is mainly due to the US foreign politics.
We here in the mountainous heartland of Andalucia are suffering a 120% price raise in animal fother which is desastrous as the region is mainly populated with small scale animal goat/sheep herders. We too have seen the bills for the animals double.
The reason is the oil price combined with the US buying grain in bulk because of their thirst for fule it is trying to still with bio-fuel. Primariy food for fuel :evil:
As transport is also more costly prices of just about everything have gone up because of this, so steel too. Grains are locally produced but too much has been sold and shipped into bulk carrying ships in Malaga.
Over here in our valley there are still many anachronisms from medieval times when world economis did not infuance daily life. The local farmers however are very much under economic pressure now because of globalisation. Fuel and grian go up, meat goes down independant of our local demand/production.
For US citizens this may backfire even worse as many people here have started boycotting US products which will put the dollar under even more stress.
This latter aspect is the only positive in this story: the euro is very strong. No, not the ONLY positive: to be a bit more self dependant people have again started to invest in their backyard breeding of chicken, rabbits and the odd pig, which brings us to the price of steel again: prices of pens and troughs has gone up marketly too.
peter
Globalization has brought many freedoms you don't get with a purely localized community. Open exchange of information, new opportunities, et cetra.
Why exactly are people boycotting US goods? We're the worlds leading grain producer, and I'm personally against the bio-fuel thing as it yields less energy than you put into the process; not to mention you use petroleum based pesticides. Maybe it's time we stopped exporting grain, and sold it to our businesses here at home?
M.
Why exactly are people boycotting US goods? We're the worlds leading grain producer, and I'm personally against the bio-fuel thing as it yields less energy than you put into the process; not to mention you use petroleum based pesticides. Maybe it's time we stopped exporting grain, and sold it to our businesses here at home?
M.
guys,
you have it real easy over there in the states. We are playing £1.10 for a litre of petrol (thats £4.18 a gallon or about $8.28). Approximately 80% of this is tax. It is the UK governments intention to further raise this tax (or duty) AND stick a 'green tax' on top of that. The green tax is simply to raise revenue and has little to do with climate change.
Someone calculated that for every £ we earn (and I'm talking normal working class folks), more that 65% vanishes in tax, licenses, duty, local taxes etc yet the money is squandered.
As you can imagine ... we hate our govt!
you have it real easy over there in the states. We are playing £1.10 for a litre of petrol (thats £4.18 a gallon or about $8.28). Approximately 80% of this is tax. It is the UK governments intention to further raise this tax (or duty) AND stick a 'green tax' on top of that. The green tax is simply to raise revenue and has little to do with climate change.
Someone calculated that for every £ we earn (and I'm talking normal working class folks), more that 65% vanishes in tax, licenses, duty, local taxes etc yet the money is squandered.
As you can imagine ... we hate our govt!
| M. Eversberg II wrote: |
| Globalization has brought many freedoms you don't get with a purely localized community. Open exchange of information, new opportunities, et cetra.
Why exactly are people boycotting US goods? We're the worlds leading grain producer, and I'm personally against the bio-fuel thing as it yields less energy than you put into the process; not to mention you use petroleum based pesticides. Maybe it's time we stopped exporting grain, and sold it to our businesses here at home? M. |
The detailed answer would entirely go into politics and any answer may very well be out of bounds here anyway!
....cut
I have removed my answer and will send you a pm.
peter
| George Davidson wrote: |
| guys,
you have it real easy over there in the states. We are playing £1.10 for a litre of petrol (thats £4.18 a gallon or about $8.28). Approximately 80% of this is tax. It is the UK governments intention to further raise this tax (or duty) AND stick a 'green tax' on top of that. The green tax is simply to raise revenue and has little to do with climate change. Someone calculated that for every £ we earn (and I'm talking normal working class folks), more that 65% vanishes in tax, licenses, duty, local taxes etc yet the money is squandered. As you can imagine ... we hate our govt! |
Funny coincidence....As I was reading this I was listening to "Taxman" by the Beatles. You had a perfect soundtrack by another British George, George.
But back to the price of steel...
Someone want to check my math or point out my oversight cause the price of steel doesn't seem to matter a jot....
Carbon Steel rods are £300 ($600) per tonne. Each sword uses maybe 4lbs.
2.2lbs per Kilo say 3kilos per sword just to to make it easy to count and allow wastage.
1000/3 = 333.3333 swords per tonne
£300/333.33333 = £0.90 ($1.80) per sword for the cost of steel.
Even triple that cost and you see virtually no dent in profit margins
Carbon Steel rods are £300 ($600) per tonne. Each sword uses maybe 4lbs.
2.2lbs per Kilo say 3kilos per sword just to to make it easy to count and allow wastage.
1000/3 = 333.3333 swords per tonne
£300/333.33333 = £0.90 ($1.80) per sword for the cost of steel.
Even triple that cost and you see virtually no dent in profit margins
| George Davidson wrote: |
| Someone want to check my math or point out my oversight cause the price of steel doesn't seem to matter a jot....
Carbon Steel rods are £300 ($600) per tonne. Each sword uses maybe 4lbs. 2.2lbs per Kilo say 3kilos per sword just to to make it easy to count and allow wastage. 1000/3 = 333.3333 swords per tonne £300/333.33333 = £0.90 ($1.80) per sword for the cost of steel. Even triple that cost and you see virtually no dent in profit margins |
The math may be correct: I haven't even tried to fact check it or just do my own rough calculations, and the amounts may be small looked at one sword at a time but with a business with very thin profit margins and uncertain sales when the economy is unstable, every little bit of extra cost hurts.
Also, with an armourer the volume of steel bought may be much greater than for a sword maker ?
The math only works when you can buy in such large amounts,
recent quote i received in the UK on W2,
55mm round x3metres, £330.00+£30.00 carriage,
buy a 13" silver steel (W1 ish) bar at a general hardware store,3/4" =£7.00.
from memory,damasteel bar through an intermediary,40"x1.1/2"x1/4" £600.00.
Getting steel in the UK on small scales is a real pain and notably more expensive than most think,
if you dont want 01 or mild steel,you normally have a real headache,
Places like Don Fogg's forum where the small time hobbyist can get some decent steel with chem speks are a godsend,
anytime i've asked for speks they think i'm taking the rise,
i'd also note the odd UK maker has been generous enough to let me buy a lump here and there, :cool:
But overall if you dont want 500 pounds plus,dont expect much joy,jmo from personnal experience,
price rises,what hasnt,
the real problem lies with the current money supply going on,problem starts with pumping economies with cheap credit,breaks the system,then the only way the money men can see to fix the problem is adding more money,but the real answer to the problem would be contraction of the money and higher rates, not welcome at this point,but,,,
yes the demand from India and China are also a huge factor,but when investers lose confidence in paper money,real commodities increase to show this,gold being the leading example the past few years,now notably food,
not going to touch the oil debate,or the UK tax issue,but it's currently 6 months for the worker,6 months for the taxman,but we all pay eh, :eek:
Bloomberg finance ran a story a few weeks back,
Stating that the US steel companies would be a great long term investment,
all to do with current stock levels and ongoing trends,
people buy what they need when they need it,the man in the streetis stuck with market conditions at time of purchase,
apologies if any seems off topic all, but it seems to be all the small problems make the big ones,
But overall,Smile, :p every day you get is a good day, :cool:
recent quote i received in the UK on W2,
55mm round x3metres, £330.00+£30.00 carriage,
buy a 13" silver steel (W1 ish) bar at a general hardware store,3/4" =£7.00.
from memory,damasteel bar through an intermediary,40"x1.1/2"x1/4" £600.00.
Getting steel in the UK on small scales is a real pain and notably more expensive than most think,
if you dont want 01 or mild steel,you normally have a real headache,
Places like Don Fogg's forum where the small time hobbyist can get some decent steel with chem speks are a godsend,
anytime i've asked for speks they think i'm taking the rise,
i'd also note the odd UK maker has been generous enough to let me buy a lump here and there, :cool:
But overall if you dont want 500 pounds plus,dont expect much joy,jmo from personnal experience,
price rises,what hasnt,
the real problem lies with the current money supply going on,problem starts with pumping economies with cheap credit,breaks the system,then the only way the money men can see to fix the problem is adding more money,but the real answer to the problem would be contraction of the money and higher rates, not welcome at this point,but,,,
yes the demand from India and China are also a huge factor,but when investers lose confidence in paper money,real commodities increase to show this,gold being the leading example the past few years,now notably food,
not going to touch the oil debate,or the UK tax issue,but it's currently 6 months for the worker,6 months for the taxman,but we all pay eh, :eek:
Bloomberg finance ran a story a few weeks back,
Stating that the US steel companies would be a great long term investment,
all to do with current stock levels and ongoing trends,
people buy what they need when they need it,the man in the streetis stuck with market conditions at time of purchase,
apologies if any seems off topic all, but it seems to be all the small problems make the big ones,
But overall,Smile, :p every day you get is a good day, :cool:
| George Davidson wrote: |
| Someone want to check my math or point out my oversight cause the price of steel doesn't seem to matter a jot....
Carbon Steel rods are £300 ($600) per tonne. Each sword uses maybe 4lbs. 2.2lbs per Kilo say 3kilos per sword just to to make it easy to count and allow wastage. 1000/3 = 333.3333 swords per tonne £300/333.33333 = £0.90 ($1.80) per sword for the cost of steel. Even triple that cost and you see virtually no dent in profit margins |
Yes, that has baffled me as well:
Blade makers jacking up prices and using increased steel prices to justify the price increase.
I am a hobbyist bladesmith myself, so I am aware what steel costs; Even when bought in low-bulk lots, i end up paying ~$3.00 / lbs.
Sure, every bit counts...but even doubling that price of steel does not justify the 10%+ price increases that have occured.
If you are going to blame something on increased prices, at least blame the sky-rocketing cost of energy! That affects every part of the production process, from heating your forge/heat-treat ovens, powering your grinders, to the price of materials and shipping!
If I could figure out how to ship them, I could pass on some of the sheets of metal I have to hobbiests for pretty cheap. I don't have the tools to mess with them :/
M.
M.
If/when I need a small piece of metal I go to a local non-dealer car mechanic and and can take a bent track rod, old leaf spring, steering column or whataever depending on the kind of steel I want for free. Scraps for a pommel or guard I can source in the heap of a local smith at the same terms ;)
Another good source are farriers.
Our local farrier will give away the worn horse shoes when asked. Those make wonderfull base material for wrought products.
I still have various hoof rasps lying about; one cut and roughly ground to make a blade. You can anneal those too and obtain a strip of perfect blade iron for free.
Just ask :idea:
peter
Another good source are farriers.
Our local farrier will give away the worn horse shoes when asked. Those make wonderfull base material for wrought products.
I still have various hoof rasps lying about; one cut and roughly ground to make a blade. You can anneal those too and obtain a strip of perfect blade iron for free.
Just ask :idea:
peter
Yeah, I used to walk out with pieces of steel from a local fab shop, which was conveniently sharing a building with my HVAC guys.
Where abouts does one get iron, though? Thought everything that was iron was pretty much steel now.
M.
Where abouts does one get iron, though? Thought everything that was iron was pretty much steel now.
M.
Ummm...I don't know anything about $3 a lbs. but I do know I paid $37.00 for a 4'x8' sheet of 16 gauge steel in 2006 and paid this past Monday $93.00 for a sheet of the same material which a week earlier was $87.00. Then of course brass which has gone up at least for me from $12.00 for a pound of rivets ( 150 or so rivets ) in 2006 to $8.21 for 50 last week. Leather at least for me has gone up about 30% since '06 and wood about 20%. Add in the cost of utilities for my shoppe skyrocketing, the 40% increase in the cost of packing materials ( boxes, peanuts, bubble wrap, tape ect.) and i'm not sure where the term " jacking up" is applicable. I know my congressman hasn't consulted with me on any of this. Maybe i'm wrong and they should just all eat the cost till they go outta business so thier wares will stay cheap till they fold. Sorry that just kinda hacked me off a bit.
The bottom line is that the cost of living and the cost of doing business have gone up pretty much across the board for most folks in the U.S. and many other places. The price of raw materials for fabrication aside, this requires pretty much everyone in business to increase their rates/prices in order to maintain a workable profit margin. The cost of energy is really the universal catalyst here, no one who uses it can escape this.
This is basic economics, there is no need to speculate randomly why a business has to make _% increase in price to absorb a _% increase in the cost of raw materials. There is more at work here, look at your own bills compared to 2 years ago and it should be obvious.
This is basic economics, there is no need to speculate randomly why a business has to make _% increase in price to absorb a _% increase in the cost of raw materials. There is more at work here, look at your own bills compared to 2 years ago and it should be obvious.
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