myArmoury.com - Seeking information of makers mark (18th century blade)

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Posts: 455 Location: Kentucky USA

Mon 05 Apr, 2004 1:49 pm

Seeking information of makers mark (18th century blade)

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone could help me out on this one. My guess would be that this blade is of Solingen manufacture. (but I don't like to "guess" on matters like this ;))

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bare smallsword blade- circa 18th century

blade length- 25 1/16"
blade width- 1 2/16"
tang length- 6 3/4"
(floral etching remains beneath the light overall pitting)

thanks,
Stephen

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makers stamp on tang "tongue"

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Last edited by Stephen A. Fisher on Mon 05 Apr, 2004 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Steve Fabert

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Posts: 493

Mon 05 Apr, 2004 1:53 pm

Is that a bayonet blade? I don't believe I have ever seen anything except a bayonet that had so pronounced a ridge on one side only.

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Stephen A. Fisher

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Posts: 455 Location: Kentucky USA

Mon 05 Apr, 2004 1:59 pm

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Last edited by Stephen A. Fisher on Mon 05 Apr, 2004 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Stephen A. Fisher

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Posts: 455 Location: Kentucky USA

Mon 05 Apr, 2004 2:04 pm

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Stephen A. Fisher

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Posts: 455 Location: Kentucky USA

Mon 05 Apr, 2004 2:29 pm

Steve Fabert wrote:

Is that a bayonet blade? I don't believe I have ever seen anything except a bayonet that had so pronounced a ridge on one side only.

Hello Steve,

No, this is a blade for an eighteenth century smallsword. Adult smallsword blades could range from 25-34" (28-32" being the most common) and came in many blade variations: ex. triangular, hexagonal, diamond, flat.

Take a look through the myArmoury.com albums for hundreds of examples.
Smallswords
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=55

and my album,
The Smallsword and its variations
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=96

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The socket bayonet, a French invention from the last half of the 17th century also contained a blade of triangular cross section, very similar to that of the smallsword.

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Brown Bess socket bayonet c.1810 (with triangular blade)

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Steve Fabert

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Posts: 493

Mon 05 Apr, 2004 3:32 pm

Stephen A. Fisher wrote:

No, this is a blade for an eighteenth century smallsword. Adult smallsword blades could range from 25-34" (28-32" being the most common) and came in many blade variations: ex. triangular, hexagonal, diamond, flat.

That certainly explains my ignorance. My sword-related reading interests jump from about 1475 to 1815, so I am not familiar with the smallsword variants.

It must have taken a great deal of effort and care for a smith to produce that sort of complex geometry - or were these manufactured with some early form of automation that reduced the degree of individual skill required?

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Sean Flynt

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Posts: 5,981 Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Tue 06 Apr, 2004 7:09 am

That reminds me, Stephen-Have you seen Alchem's new colichemarde smallsword for historical fencing? You'll appreciate this: http://www.alcheminc.com/safeflexrapiers.jpg

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Stephen A. Fisher

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Posts: 455 Location: Kentucky USA

Wed 07 Apr, 2004 8:29 pm

Sean Flynt wrote:

That reminds me, Stephen-Have you seen Alchem's new colichemarde smallsword for historical fencing? You'll appreciate this: http://www.alcheminc.com/safeflexrapiers.jpg

Hi Sean,

Yes, unfortunately the 36" length is a turnoff. Though they could probably be shortened somewhat. I don't know why they have labeled it as a "colichemarde," :eek: as it is clearly not. I'm not very fond of their rod tangs either. But I'm sure they could probably make something more suitable if asked.

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A big thanks to Richard Dellar from the Antique & Military Sword Forum on SFI, he was able to locate the makers mark in the German book, Me Fecit Potzdam: Altpreussisches Blankwaffen des 18 Jahrhunderts ( Prussian Swords of the 18th Century). He mentioned that crossed keys was the trademark of the Solingen cutler Friedrich Herder & Sohn (which still makes knives today). http://www.herder-solingen.de/ He suggested that it could possibly be an early version of the mark.

If one of our German forumites could help out in translating the caption for me, I would be very much obliged. This it what the online translator service deciphered.

"Sign with gekreuzsten keying did not identify in pearl wreath oval on bikonvixer dragoon blade; around 1780"

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scan from "Me Fecit Potzdam"

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Steve Fabert

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Wed 07 Apr, 2004 9:30 pm

Stephen A. Fisher wrote:

If one of our German forumites could help out in translating the caption for me, I would be very much obliged. This it what the online translator service deciphered.

"Sign with gekreuzsten keying did not identify in pearl wreath oval on bikonvixer dragoon blade; around 1780"

I am not a native speaker, but it approximates as “Unidentified mark with crossed keys in oval wreath of pearls on double convex dragoon blade - about 1780.”

A similar crown and single key appear on the arms of the city of Bremen. A swordmaker in Bremen may therefore have used such a modified mark.

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Stephen A. Fisher

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Posts: 455 Location: Kentucky USA

Wed 07 Apr, 2004 10:41 pm

Steve Fabert wrote:

I am not a native speaker, but it approximates as “Unidentified mark with crossed keys in oval wreath of pearls on double convex dragoon blade - about 1780.”

Thanks Steve.

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A similar crown and single key appear on the arms of the city of Bremen. A swordmaker in Bremen may therefore have used such a modified mark.

This is an interesting subject. The symbol of St. Peter is a pair of crossed keys, and the symbol was used widely over Europe throughout the centuries on various seals, heraldry, etc. Many also contained a crown above them. But we can can agree that this blade is of German origin considering the source. The only makers mark that I have found thus far is that of Friedrich Herder & Sohn which features crossed keys. (early 20th century example attached)

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Steve Fabert

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Thu 08 Apr, 2004 4:25 am

The presence of the crown in your first photo is what reminded me of the Bremen arms, and I note that the crown is absent from the more recent Herder mark. The crown was generally used to signify the status of a major city like Bremen. But without some confirmation that there were swordmakers in Bremen in the 1780s, it's just a guess. Since the authors of the book containing the photo of a similar mark were unable to identify it, the rest of us are unlikely to figure it out just by pooling our general knowledge of heraldry.

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Stephen A. Fisher

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Posts: 455 Location: Kentucky USA

Thu 08 Apr, 2004 8:59 am

Steve Fabert wrote:

Since the authors of the book containing the photo of a similar mark were unable to identify it, the rest of us are unlikely to figure it out just by pooling our general knowledge of heraldry.

I agree.

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