Hello everyone,

I haven't had the chance yet to watch the videos (but will when I get home from work), but wanted to comment quickly on a couple of discussion points:

1. There are folks doing bouting where obvious elements of the art are expressed including winding.
2. I bout regularly with steel gauntlets - I can wind with them just fine. I can do a Krumphau just fine in my hourglass gauntlets too.
3. I've bouted with steel swords with varying degrees of protective gear. In particular, my demonstration bout with Bill Grandy during the feast at WMAW was well-regarded, and high-level practitioners and researchers of Liechtenauer's art felt it showed the techniques well. We were able to leverage most of the five blows well, some winden, some techniques out of the Nebenhut, and certainly Durchwechseln. My friends from Germany were quite happy with what they saw, and that meant the world to me, as I know it did to Bill.

Poorly fitted gauntlets will make winding just about impossible, but even those shouldn't hinder a properly executed Durchwechseln.

You won't however see much winding in free play videos because winding is only likely between very skilled combatants; most mid-level guys parry to hard to make winden viable. It's only done when someone parries conservatively.

All these things can be done, but they require gobs of practice, properly fitted gear, and a mindset that focuses first and foremost on expressing and experiencing the true Art and considering the idea of 'winning' a distant fourth place priority.

All the best,

Christian

I think the slapping on the sword and other silly maneouvres come from the fact that we know each other very well. We just know that our partners/opponents will counter us instantly. One of the downsides of a realtively small longsword community in our area...

just to share some decent videos :p
These guys aren't of my group or anything, they're just good researchers and presenters of some of the Art.
enjoy ;) :!:


http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg

the work shown is set pieces not free bouting, however it conveys a very clear image of what the "academic" version could have been...

Hello,

Largely I agree with points that Hugh makes as far as what needs improvement in your sparring. However, I will agree with Christian Tobler on the ability to practice blossfechten well with appropriate gear. Our groups uses hockey and lacrosse gloves of various types as well as hardened leather gauntlets of my own design. We are able to readily make use of the various binding and winding techniques of the Lichtenauer tradition.

There are three points made that I must disagree with:

Jan Chodkiewicz wrote:

Things change, when you sparing for real. Besides, I think that people who learned german longsword, don't remember that is " forbidden and secret words of the teachings are hereafter in the glosa clarified and explained so that anyone who otherwise understands fencing can understand them." So, it's not the basics - we have to discover them by ourselves. If you study modern fencing, you can find, that most of medieval techniqes now belong to advanced actions in sport fencing. Sombody without few years of training, simply cannot use only these techniques in sparing.

1. If things change when sparring then what is the point of the treatises? While the treatises are intended for experienced students they are not merely collections of advanced techniques. There is plenty of discussion of principles. Von Danzig tells you not to attack the opponents sword. This is not advanced technical advice, it is a basic principle, which you do not follow. You are advised to step with your right foot as you attack from the right and you don't - you remain left foot forward almost always and rely on footwork more akin to Kendo or modern sport fencing. The value of a displacing cut like Zornhau is clearly spelled out and attacking the blade referred to as a bad parry, yet this basic principle also does not appear in your sparring.

All of these are basics. Not techniques too advanced to learn in the first three years. They are core principles of the system repeated several times in almost every treatise.

Mick Czerep wrote:

What you see is obviously different from 'pure treatise' technique, as it is extremely difficult to DO the prescribed moves in a fight against a determined opponent who doesn't conform to 'the system' and not just DEMONSTRATE them in more or less isolation or at lower speed level.

2. If the opponent must conform to the system for the techniques to work then you must question your understanding of the material or practice it more. I've held my own against fighters using Fiore and modern practice by using German technique. There is not an attack or technique in any other system which cannot be countered within the German system. At least I've not found it. And neither player in the videos were using unusual techniques so outside of the system that Lichtenauer couldn't handle them.

Jan Chodkiewicz wrote:

When you attack with series of strikes , when you try to bounce oponent sword and then attack, when you provoke smb to attack to parry/displace and riposte - I know, that it's not describe precisly in von Danzig treatise, but if you think about it, search, you can draw a conclusion that it was used.

3. We, as a community, must be careful when using this kind of logic. We can't know for sure what is in the gaps that aren't clearly spelled out in the treatises. There is an American term for this: frog DNA - it refers to the problems caused by filling the gaps with our modern material. As such we should look at any additions to the system to see if they fit within the principles of the system. I do not believe that this technique does because it relies on attacking the opponents blade which is specifically advised against. A canny opponent will duchwechseln, zucken or abnemen against such a maneuver.

I would recommend more antagonistic drilling as you continue your studies. Specifically:
1. Have the players line up against each other (a fathom apart (Meyer)) and one throws an attack and the other must defend with Zornhau. Reset and repeat.
This will teach the judgment of timing and distance necessary to use the technique; it will teach how to enter the bind so you can make use of binding and winding techniques. And it will prove that the technique works just fine against a non-cooperative opponent.

2. Start in the bind. Free play without leaving the bind. You'll have to learn how to apply winding techniques for anything to happen.

There are plenty of other kinds of antagonistic drills you can use but these two will likely address the biggest areas of improvement.

Good luck with your further studies :)
-Steven

P.S. Sorry if I sound harsh. I really want the WMA to be well done. So we must all learn from each other.

Hugh and Steven,

Thank you for your comments, but in my opinion the treatises are not so canonical, as you wrote. One and only true, that you decribes simply doesn't exist in fencing. There are many possibilities. You can find them in the treatises too, it's not frog DNA ;)

ATTACKING THE BLADE

Quote:

on Danzig tells you not to attack the opponents sword. This is not advanced technical advice, it is a basic principle, which you do not follow.

Quote:

but I couldn't identify any specific German Meisterhauen and he tended to cut at his opponent's sword rather than his head and body as the masters direct us to do (both men did this)

Of course, you can find this advice in treatise, but .... What you do when you defend by first and basic Maisterhau -Zornhau? - you exacly attack the oponent sword , and then thrust. "And this do thus: When you come to him in the Zufechten and he strikes to you then from his right side above to the head, then strike also from your right side from above to completely displace his sword with wrath.If he is soft at the sword, then shoot the point skillfully along it and thrust to his face or breast. Thus set upon him."

Krumphau, the same situation, "strike against his strike = sword", - . If he then strikes above to your opening, then strike strongly with the long edge with crossed arms against his strike. And as soon as the swords clash, then wind immediately (Indes) against his to your left side with the short edge on his sword and thrust to his face. Or, if you do not want to thrust, then strike him immediately with the short edge from the sword to his head or body.

another, - Note, This means when he wants to strike above from his right side to you, then drive high with the hands and pretend as if you intend to bind against his sword with the Krumphau. And drive with the point under through his sword and thrust to his other side to the face or breast and remember well to defend your head with the hilt.

in this one, you even pretend to atack the oponent sword, and then make durchwechseln. Pure fencing ;)

Schielhau - Note, When you come to him in the Zufechten and he stands against you and holds the Langenort (Long Point) to your face or chest, then hold your sword at the right shoulder. ‘Squint’ with your face at his point and pretend as if you want to strike to it. But strike strongly with the Squinter with the short edge to his sword and shoot the point long to his throat with a step of your right foot.

This is also clear attacking the blade, then thrust....

Besides, in Kendo and sport fencing "slapping the blade" is not "l silly maneouvre". It's called Harai- waza, or Beat, and it works.

UBERLAUFEN

Quote:

White failed to respond to these legs attacks with an Uberlauffen as he ought to have.

Yes, he failed. Becouse usualy I attack lower opening during series of attack. Then it works. Doebringer tells that it's risky, becouse it is, but it's not forbidden.

You should always look for the upper openings rather then the lower, and go over his hilt with strikes or thrusts artfully and quickly. For you have better reach over the hilt then under it and you are also much safer in all fencing. The upper touch is much better then the lower. It may happen that you are closer to the lower opening and therefore seek it, as often happens.

GUARDS

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he "L" tradition has a number of primary guards besides left pflug. Use some of them. You may be surprised at the different opportunities available.

Of course, you are right. But I think, that for right-handed, Left Pflug is most comfortable, and safe guard. (protects from quick attack to the hands, feint - thrust etc.) We mostly pass through the guards, when we decide to strike. Or stand in, after stike, at the bind (Ochs) In my opinion, standing in guards, and waiting is wrong. It shows, what you will do, and that's why is without any sense. I see this on many videos, and it's rather like samurai duel in Kurosawa movies, then real sparing. (Doebringer wrote:
"And what you would try readily in earnest or in play, should be hidden from him so that he does not know what you intend to try against him")

DISPLACEMENTS and BIND

Modern fencing distinguish two types of fighting - with or without the bind. Both have advantage and disadvantage. In my opinion it works in sword fencing, too.

Best Regards

Jan Chodkiewicz

just to tie in with Randall pleasants' comment: it is also a possibility that the masters describe techniques "from the cross/bind/blade" in the event that your attempt to strike your man met with his blade on the way. The mindset remains the same throughout: strike the man!

This probably echoes many: the techniques used with the mindset to strike the man will void or counter his attack, when correclty executed :lol: , without you needing to concentrate on the defensive aspect of the action: this leaves you to concentrate on the serious trouble-free maiming of your opponent :D

Hi Jean!
I think you expressed very aptly what we failed to express. Between two people of similar skill, who, what is worse, know each other well, a bout will not look pretty, fluid or decisive.

Look at competing wrestlers or judoka - all this rolling about or trying to tear your opponents sleeve off... Unless there is a significant disparity of skill, of course...
Cheers
Mick