A short review of the stainless maille shirt I just bought from " The Ring Lord " and the buying experience:
http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplayproduc...cat=Scales

Just bought this maille T-shirt haubergeon equivalent in stainless and welded rings:
http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplayproduc...l+Clothing Scroll down to the sleeved one.

The weight is around 7 pounds and is silky smooth to the touch ( Important if worn over only a regular t-shirt rather than a gambison ). Some period maille may have also been made of welded rings but I assume would have been VERY much more expensive that riveted in period.

Since reenactment or living history accuracy of materials is not a priority with me the fact that its stainless is a plus as I don't have to worry about rust or have the maille oiled and messy ! Welded maille should also be the strongest possible maille for any size of ring or gauge of wire.

Now I already had Indian made riveted galvanized maille, using larger and heavier wire, that is a full size longsleeved hauberk that works well on it's own for earlier maille only period or transitional maille/plate period, but is bulky and heavy if used with plate. This much lighter 22 gauge wire and very small rings makes for a dense but light weight maille haubergeon that works well as light standalone armour for a skirmisher, as a " secrète " maille shirt worn hidden under period clothing and as the foundation under plate.

I can see this shirt worn over a light shirt and under a gambison/aketon ( lets not fight over which is the proper terminology this time. ;) :lol: ) . If worn over the gambison, the sleeves are quite wide so I see the arm harness could be worn with the maille sleeve over the upper arm protection and with spaulders worn overlapping and over the maille sleeve ( German style and/or early transitional period ).

Now for the buying experience from " The Ring Lord ":

Bottom line VERY GOOD buying experience and below the detailed story:

1) The web site is very detailed and complete and one need very little in extra information to make a purchase, pay for the product, track the package etc ......

2) I asked a question about sleeve size in an e-mail to be sure they would be wide enough to be used under my gambison as I need at least an 18" sleeve size and the site didn't give this information. My initial e-mail got an acknowledgement the very next day and was transferred to the person who could answer.
There was a delay of one week without an answer, but a follow up e-mail by me was answered immediately as it seems that my initial e-mail got lost somehow ( It happens ), and I got immediate answer to my question.
Note: That this was a few days before Christmas and delays at this time are sort of expected.

3) I ordered the maille the same day I got confirmation about the sleeve size and that I should put a note in my order to check up on it before shipping.

4) I wasn't expecting to receive the maille shirt until the mid January: I checked the web site and tracking Sunday night and was pleasantly surprised to find out that the package was due for delivery today on Monday.

5) So the service was as promised as to the estimated delivery time, and this during a holiday period ! GREAT SERVICE. :cool:

Oh, I got the XXL and it fits perfectly, no problems with tightness under the armpit when lifting the arms over the head.

Also this maille seems to be the same that they use for " Sharksuit " and for leg protection for lumberjack competitions: This gauge of welded maille should give very good cut protection and decent protection from a thrust I think.

I'm not going to test it by shooting arrows at it or try to stab through it or cut it with a sword as it's mostly for costume use, but as with my swords that are sharps, I like my armour to be functional and be " real " armour.

Anyway, the product is well made and the buying process as painless as possible.

Awesome chainmaille! The price is right too. I myself am looking for some titanium welded flat maille but the ringlord doesn't seem to carry flat rings or at least not that I've noticed while browsing his site. The armor I'd like needs to be strong enough to handle the rigors of SCA heavy suiting and live steel combat. Anyone know of an armor that makes this stuff in strips or even a complete hauberk itself, lend me some info.

One thing I am curious about is how comparatively strong is this maille compared to 16 gauge 8 mm riveted maille of reasonable quality ( Indian made but decent average quality ) ?

Since it is 22 gauge 5/32" inside diameter made of welded stainless steel it looks very small in comparison and the wire thickness is sort of mid range for the size of ring.

Cut resistance is probably very good but I'm curious about the yield strength of the wire.

Oh, I did go to many web sites and did some reading but couldn't find precise information about the strength of this machine made maille. I did find some information suggesting that it would be much stronger than it looks like.

My searches consisted of some Googling " welded maille " and also this site: http://www.armourarchive.org/
So far some interesting reading about maille in general but nothing giving comparative numbers or destructive testing.

Very nice Jean. I may have to get one of these myself.

Too bad they really don't show you a close up of the rings. What do they look like, if you don't mind me asking?

I have a similar shirt (full sleeved knee length, aquiered from a beef plant) It is quite a bit stronger than the cheap Indian riveted stuff and impossible to cut. Its biggest drawback is that if it where stabbed while on your body the mass of the shirt around the impact would be driven into the wound. This would be negated to a large extent by padding of course. I should also mention that the deepest penetration through the mail with a dagger that I ever achieved was just around 1/4 of an inch as opposed to around 11" penetration (all the way to the hilt) agianst Indian riveted mail.

I had considered getting some scales from TRL to make stuff for fashion statement. Nice buy, may have to get myself one of their tanktops in the future :D

M.

While I'm not sure of the origins of TRL's welded maille, nearly all welded stainless mesh out there comes from Whiting & Davis of Massachusetts (http://www.whitinganddavis.com). They started out making chain-mesh purses and bags in the 19th century and invented the machine they still use to turn out sheets of this stuff, which they patented in 1912. I have a sample swatch of their stuff somewhere, and it's quite nice. Aside from the protective gear - sharksuits and the like - their mesh is often used in fashion, decorating, and design as well. Some interesting uses include the lining of soft-top convertibles to provide cut and theft resistance.

They do provide technical data on their website for various meshes. 22 gauge would correspond to #9 wire, for which we can see:

Base metal: 304 L Stainless Steel
Tensile strength: 11,500 P.S.I. to 125,000 P.S.I.
Wire size/diameter: .031" / .787 mm
Inside ring diameter: .213" / 5.41 mm
Outside ring diameter: .275" / 6.99 mm
Weight per square foot: .63 lbs / .286 kg
Thickness (sheet): .125" / 3.18 mm
http://www.whitinganddavis.com/Ring_Mesh_Tech...tion07.pdf

Hello
I have a similar shirt from,Azon Mesh,I`d be interested ,in knowing, how it would rate as armor ,too.
Such as ,would it be as strong as, armor of the day?Would it stop an arrow?I`ve never tested mine,didn`t want to mess it up...it too purty :)


Karl Knisley

[quote="Ben Williams"]

Quote:

ill see that the welds don't penetrate fully and are brittle if you twist them. They stand up fairly well to horizontal and vertical forces but will open up fairly easily under any sort of twisting motion. My understanding is that TRL is purchasing new welders that will make welds as strong as the wire (the welders they use to weld the connecting ring make very high quality welds). Unfortunately, TRL's mesh does not offer more than good looks for SCA combat. The maille is not dense enough to take some of the blows. You won't rip a shirt in combat but will will have more bruises than if you used denser maille.

Thanks for the information although the first part about the rings being brittle at the weld is a bit disappointing.
For costume/fantasy use I can always " imagine " them stronger. ;) :lol: ( mithril ..... :p )

As to SCA: Maille from what I've read is not very useful as it's not meant to be optimum protection against blunt trauma even when very heavy and strong. It's period use was for protection against sharp edges or points, and for obvious reasons it's only for show with a combat sport like SCA or vigourous reenactment fighting. For me personally this is not an issue but it's still useful information for those who participate in SCA fighting.

How about cut resistance ? Is it reasonably good ?

A heavier gauge of wire that was welded as strong as the wire itself would be better ( preferable for me ) even with rings of a small size if the option was available.

I'm sure that well made riveted maille of a denser aspect ratio using bigger rings would be better stand alone armour: For a secrète or maille used under plate a lighter type of shirt might be an acceptable compromise as long as it's performance takes full advantage of the potential strength of the material i.e. no weak welds.

Still, I guess I would have to get a sample patch of this maille just to do my own rough " non-scientific " testing to satisfy my curiosity and sort of quantify the limits of what this maille can protect from:

1) Little protection from a stab with a narrow and stout dagger point.
2) Stops light to medium stabs
3) Stops a heavy stabs
4) Stops any stab one can do with one hand on a soft surface simulating a body part covered by a gambison.
5) Stops same as #4 but when directly on a hard surface.
6) Same test as #5 but a destructive test hammering a center punch through a link or more if none of the above tests pierce the maille. ( No point doing more demanding tests if the shirt links fail at #1 - #2 or #3 ).

Sorry for the double post, having a bit of a lag issue.

I couldn't edit the above post; it said that there was a 14 day limit, despite I having posted it a minute ago. If a moderator could fix the poorly linked URL, that would be great.

M.

Maille can help absorb blows from it's weight if it is loose and heavy enough. The most effective areas are when it hangs and where it's very loose( i.e. skirts, aventails, sleeves, etc.). I have fought in maille and would say that it hleps with raps to the sides where it is a little looser and the lower chest (haveing been hit there a lot :D ).

The mesh is able to stand up to just about any cut or slash and performs well against knife stabbings. The mesh can withstand around 75J of force (which is equivalent to a double overhead stab) with minimal damage.

Quote:

1) Little protection from a stab with a narrow and stout dagger point. 2) Stops light to medium stabs 3) Stops a heavy stabs 4) Stops any stab one can do with one hand on a soft surface simulating a body part covered by a gambison. 5) Stops same as #4 but when directly on a hard surface. 6) Same test as #5 but a destructive test hammering a center punch through a link or more if none of the above tests pierce the maille. ( No point doing more demanding tests if the shirt links fail at #1 - #2 or #3 ).

I'd say that it is (refering to the above list) 4, maybe 5 (the knife point will be stopped by the hard surface before the mesh has to stop it). I've also done 6 by hammering a spike into the ground (the mesh failed). It doesn't stand up very well to points like that of an ice pick or punch.

TRL's mesh is great for accidental or incidental blows like missed ax swings, knife cuts (like when cutting meat), etc. However, hand-made welded or riveted maille is more effective against intentional attacks. My 75 joule number is a lower end estimate for the blows that the mesh has survived during my tests. I based this on the estimate of the NIJ for what each kind of knife attack (single hand stab, backhand, double overhead) seen here: http://www.justnet.org/pdffiles/0115.00.pdf

The mesh would be rated to around a level II stab protection except that the tip of the knife will penetrate more than 7mm that is allowed regardless of striking force.

As for the questions on shark-suits TRL makes the suits for Neptunic. They use the 3/32" mesh rather than the 5/32" ring size shirt you got. It is of higher quality but is apprx. double the price. They also only sell the mesh in shirts on a custom basis.

Quote:

I would interpret, now, your first comments about " relative " effectiveness as armour of this mesh that with perfect welds or with a good riveted maille of bigger rings and density of weave that this mesh is " LESS " protective: Is this a fair interpretation of your intent ?

Yes. I would definately prefer to wear a riveted maille shirt to a welded mesh shirt if my life depended on it stopping pre-firearm weaponry. However, this mesh is adequate for today's dangers and is less expensive.

The mesh is able to stop a shark bite because the teeth are not meant fust a round point. It's more a matter of geometry rather than one of bite pressure (though a large biting force will defeat the mesh). The ring captures the tip of the tooth and the neoprene behind the mesh takes some of the force and the cutting affect of the teeth. If the teeth were round then I expect the the mesh would be more likely to fail.