Hi all,

I realise that this question will likely bear little fruit, but I'll ask anyway.

Does anyone have any pics of Philistine swords-- specifically Iron Age I or II? I have found a number of websites that speak of "great numbers of weapons" found including swords, but can find no images online.

One thing I have found is Egyptian illustrations of the Sea Peoples (Sherden, Peleset etc)-- the swords shown there are (I believe) to early for my interests. While it is certainly possible that the materials changed (i.e. from bronze to iron) while the form remained more or less constant, I suspect that the 200-400 years between the relevant time periods would have seen some development in the sword'd form.

I seem to recall seeing a supposed Philistine sword in a book I once had but can't remember anything other than a straight double-edged blade.

Any help is appreciated,

David

David,

I have never found a published Iron Philistine sword. I guess it is possible that the Levant coast is so wet that iron soon turned to a lump of rust... Or maybe the archeologist have just dug in the wrong places. I do have a few archeological drawing of early Iron swords from Crete and Greece. They are, in essence, iron versions of their bronze predicessors. These are the best preserved examples I cold find--some even have the grip plates still attached. If archeologists were to dig up some iron philistines swords I would not be surprised if they looked like these.

ks

Hi Kirk,

Thanks again for some great illustrations!

At first I though some of the swords were hollow-ground, which took me aback before I realised the blades in question had more of a "mid-rib" or ridge wich gave the fleeting appearance of hollow-grinding. It's interesting to note the familial resemblance between many of these swords and their bronze forbears.

I suppose it is easy to think of the Levant in terms of the Negev-- desert and "steppe" for lack of a better term, yet much of the land (including the environs inhabited by the Philistines) is part of the Mediterranean zone and prone, therefore, to a good deal of rain. Shame, though... you would think that something would have turned up by now.

I'll try to find the article I had been reading-- it is possible that I simply "assumed" it was speaking of [url]iron[/url] swords that had been found in the various excavations, when it was really refering to bronze.

The Uluburun shipwreck excavations produced an interesting Canaanite sword (and dagger) that you are probably familiar with. Again, these are bronze, but the sword's hilt is quite interesting-- it is inlayed with ivory and ebony.

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Hi David,

I think I have seen that beautiful ebony/ivory Canaanite sword in an article on underwater archeology. However the picture they showed was a very oblique view from the tip which made the sword look much longer. Your picture shows that it is really more of a long dagger. (Based on a grip length of 4 inches the total length appears to be about 15 inches or so. ) the hourglass grip clearly shows its connections to the designs further east. Thanks for the second look.

The cross-sections shown on the archeological drawings of iron Naue IIs seem to be typical of bronze Naue II swords (thick lenticular). There is one on the last set, top row, second from the right that is closer to a shallow hollow grind... probably not from grinding but from cold working the edges. I read that early iron had so many slag inclusions that bladesmiths would continue the cold working they had used with bronze, but not to harden the edge but to compact the iron into the slag inclusions. If this is so it may reduce the thickness of the edges to produce a hollowground effect.

ks

This is all quite interesting. I am helping a friend's brother do a film for his class on David and Goliath. Of course the Philistines played a big role in that story so this information is quite helpful.

Hi Aaron...

It is interesting that you mention Goliath. I have been thinking about it since I saw a carving of a philistine like head carved from the base of an antler. I think it is from 11th century Crete. At the time it was published it was in the British Museum's collection. When I saw it I thought that it would make a great pommel for Goliath's sword.

Designing such a "Goliath's" sword would offer a tremendus amount of freedom. Goliath would not be able to use a sword "off the shelf" so to speak... Also he lived at a time of transition between bronze and iron. And he lived in a land between the east and west. This give alot of territory from which to draw inspiration.

At the same time, the Biblical narrative could provide some constraints, to make the piece fit what we might know about Goliath. For instance he was about half again as big as the average man. So to get the proportions right we could take the basic dimensions for a typical sword of that time and increase them by 50%. So if we were to conclude that the median total length a sword of that time was 25 inches, Goliath's sword might be 36 inches. A four inch grip would be 6 inches. And the grip diameter would go from one inch to 1.5 inches.

We also can speculate that if a little shepherd boy is going to cut off the giant's head, the design should have a certain amount of chopping power. It would be quite a chore to cut off a giant's head with a Minoan rapier.

With this in mind I have taken my favorite parts of Aegean bronze and early Iron age swords and pieced them together with the aforementioned Cretian philistine-like head as a pommel to create my vision for Goliath's sword. It would be about the size of a medieval broadsword but shaped like an aegean leaf-bladed, flange hilt.

Here is a composite I put together in Photoshop...

ks

Hi, Kirk:

I like your Goliath sword design. An oversized Naue II might be more "accurate," but yours has more character.

Ha ha ha... it seems kind of funny imagining a 9 foot tall man weilding a sword only 36 inches long... although proportionately correct for the period, you'd think a huge man like that would have a 40 or 50 inch long single hander.

Fortunately (cost wise for me) and unfortunately (most of the people except one knows nothing about weaponry) I am not in charge of weapons, but I am supplying a battle axe for Goliath to use. Steel, yes... but we are going for entertainment value rather than historic content. It's for a high school class by the way, not a presentation to a historical preservation society or anything.

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:

Hi Aaron... It is interesting that you mention Goliath. I have been thinking about it since I saw a carving of a philistine like head carved from the base of an antler. I think it is from 11th century Crete. At the time it was published it was in the British Museum's collection. When I saw it I thought that it would make a great pommel for Goliath's sword. Designing such a "Goliath's" sword would offer a tremendus amount of freedom. Goliath would not be able to use a sword "off the shelf" so to speak... Also he lived at a time of transition between bronze and iron. And he lived in a land between the east and west. This give alot of territory from which to draw inspiration. At the same time, the Biblical narrative could provide some constraints, to make the piece fit what we might know about Goliath. For instance he was about half again as big as the average man. So to get the proportions right we could take the basic dimensions for a typical sword of that time and increase them by 50%. So if we were to conclude that the median total length a sword of that time was 25 inches, Goliath's sword might be 36 inches. A four inch grip would be 6 inches. And the grip diameter would go from one inch to 1.5 inches. We also can speculate that if a little shepherd boy is going to cut off the giant's head, the design should have a certain amount of chopping power. It would be quite a chore to cut off a giant's head with a Minoan rapier. With this in mind I have taken my favorite parts of Aegean bronze and early Iron age swords and pieced them together with the aforementioned Cretian philistine-like head as a pommel to create my vision for Goliath's sword. It would be about the size of a medieval broadsword but shaped like an aegean leaf-bladed, flange hilt. Here is a composite I put together in Photoshop... ks

Hi Kirk,

Impressive pastiche! Are you thinking of getting a custom like that for yourself? Have you (or has anyone on the forum) ever held a sword with that type of hilting? I am referring to the cross-- I know it is historically accurate, but it looks really uncomfortable!

You wrote:

Quote:

So to get the proportions right we could take the basic dimensions for a typical sword of that time and increase them by 50%. So if we were to conclude that the median total length a sword of that time was 25 inches, Goliath's sword might be 36 inches. A four inch grip would be 6 inches. And the grip diameter would go from one inch to 1.5 inches.

I've often wondered how this particular sword would translate in relative size (but have never done the footwork). Thanks again for your insight.

David

Hi John...

Thanks for taking the time to post pictures of your collection around the forums... truely amazing stuff.
Here is the archeological drawings of the Mycanean sword I used for the hilt in my Goliath sword.

ks

Hi John...

I think I have seen most all of the pics you have posted. It seems you have very broad interests in swords (me too). The archeological drawings of the bronze "hook shouldered" blade are photoshop modifications from those published in Zeitstellung von Schwertern in Griechenland.

ks