hi nice meeting everyone.
I have been looking for information on what type of kits (amour and weapons) where used in Southern Italy specifically Sicily in the 1400’s. I know that culturally Sicily has been closer to Greece and Byzantium then Western Europe. The Normans dominated it in the 1060 and then the Holy Roman Empire, then the French. From what I understand during the 1400’s it was controlled by Spain.
Would Sicilians have used a kits that where similar to Spanish, German, Italian or Byzantine? or did they have a mix of all of the above?
thanks for the help
You have to narrow it down from "the 1400s." The 15th century was one of great evolutionary advances in armour throughout Europe, and most definitely in Italy. The Italian style referred to today as Milanese flourished throughout Europe, specifically in Italy and under influence of local tastes in England and Burgundy, as well as other parts of France, Germany and Spain. Plate in most of Italy would have been more similar to that seen on the continent than that of the Eastern nations. Venetians though, do seem to have picked up a bit of an Oriental feel in some of their armour, and I believe a more composite feel came with many of their standard "harnesses" incorporating more extravagantly decorated (feather-crested) open-faced helms and brigandines than Northern Italians who valued plate. I make this observation based on a broad scope only from a handful of plates I can think of off-hand. I may be being a little too vague in my stating so, in that case.
-Gregory-
-Gregory-
| Gregory J. Liebau wrote: |
| You have to narrow it down from "the 1400s." The 15th century was one of great evolutionary advances in armour throughout Europe, and most definitely in Italy. The Italian style referred to today as Milanese flourished throughout Europe, specifically in Italy and under influence of local tastes in England and Burgundy, as well as other parts of France, Germany and Spain. Plate in most of Italy would have been more similar to that seen on the continent than that of the Eastern nations. Venetians though, do seem to have picked up a bit of an Oriental feel in some of their armour, and I believe a more composite feel came with many of their standard "harnesses" incorporating more extravagantly decorated (feather-crested) open-faced helms and brigandines than Northern Italians who valued plate. I make this observation based on a broad scope only from a handful of plates I can think of off-hand. I may be being a little too vague in my stating so, in that case.
-Gregory- |
Venice was influenced by its greek adriatic dominions, in that it adopted barbutes that had an ancestor in the corynthian helm, at least according to what is common knowledge today.
I wonder if this is so true because corynthian helmets had been dismissed at the end of the freedom period of Greece, when it fell under roman rule: there is an at least one and half thousands year hiatus between the corynthian helms and the renaissance barbutes, so i wonder if such helms were instead inspired by renaissance studies of the ancient greek civilization, rather than by a contact with greek armourers.
Perhaps some originals were rediscovered by antiquari, the first renaissance scholars of the ancient classical civilization, as this is the moment of the flourishing of such studies.
As of Sicily itself, its distance from Venice is considerable, politically they were never united.
Gregory and Bruno thanks for the replies.
Gregory your right I should narrow it down. The reason I asked about it vaguely is at the moment I am looking for a starting point. My family is of Italian decent, on my mothers side we are Venician and Neapolitan, my father’s side is Sicilian. As a kid I rebelled and didn’t want to know about any of it. As an adult things have changed, now I’m extremely curious.
Lately I’ve been reading about Southern Italy, Sicily, Venice and Byzantium and have come across how closely culturally they are connected. But information is hard to come by.
It is funny thoe, as a child I grew up in a Greek neighborhood in New York. Early on I realized that my family and our neighbors had similar customs. Never really paid much attention to it but always thought it was curious. Now I understand why.
I’ve recently read the John Julius Norwich on Byzantium and Steven Runciman’s The Sicilian Vespers. That and searching the internet.
I came to this interest by accident. I started reading the Norwick books for information on the migration era, and Turks.
Didn’t Venice through most of its history have an Eastern Mediterranean atmosphere? I mean for a good part of its history it was either a Byzantine possession or a special trading partner. After they instigated the sacking of Constantinople most of the monuments went to Venice.
Gregory your right I should narrow it down. The reason I asked about it vaguely is at the moment I am looking for a starting point. My family is of Italian decent, on my mothers side we are Venician and Neapolitan, my father’s side is Sicilian. As a kid I rebelled and didn’t want to know about any of it. As an adult things have changed, now I’m extremely curious.
Lately I’ve been reading about Southern Italy, Sicily, Venice and Byzantium and have come across how closely culturally they are connected. But information is hard to come by.
It is funny thoe, as a child I grew up in a Greek neighborhood in New York. Early on I realized that my family and our neighbors had similar customs. Never really paid much attention to it but always thought it was curious. Now I understand why.
I’ve recently read the John Julius Norwich on Byzantium and Steven Runciman’s The Sicilian Vespers. That and searching the internet.
I came to this interest by accident. I started reading the Norwick books for information on the migration era, and Turks.
Didn’t Venice through most of its history have an Eastern Mediterranean atmosphere? I mean for a good part of its history it was either a Byzantine possession or a special trading partner. After they instigated the sacking of Constantinople most of the monuments went to Venice.
I had the impression that Southern Italy put more of an emphasis on naval war and city militias, hiring specialty forces from other areas for cavalry and land sieges. I'd like to hear an explanation if anyone knows the fine details. If you find the answer, please follow up with it on this post!
It seems like that century includes a wide range of military influence in Sicily; Spanish, Norman-French, and the Italian-Sicilians. The Normans still officially held its crown at the beginning of the 14th century. The region of Spain occupying the fortresses in Sicily at the end of the 15th century was Aragon, which became merged with Castile. Some of that history is nicely summarized here. http://libro.uca.edu/chaytor/achistory.htm
Have you decided what you want to emulate (conscripted soldier class or possibly the occupying knightly class?) You might want to start with studying your target group-soldier/class as it also existed elsewhere at the same time. There is a feature article here on the Italian Renaissance Armies that might be of interest. http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_armies_italy.html There are great Italian statues of Milanese cavalry from this era (look at a couple of the ones of Bartolomeo Colleoni.) Leonardo da Vinci’s II Condottiero (circa 1480) is a bizarre ornate cavalry example!
It seems like that century includes a wide range of military influence in Sicily; Spanish, Norman-French, and the Italian-Sicilians. The Normans still officially held its crown at the beginning of the 14th century. The region of Spain occupying the fortresses in Sicily at the end of the 15th century was Aragon, which became merged with Castile. Some of that history is nicely summarized here. http://libro.uca.edu/chaytor/achistory.htm
Have you decided what you want to emulate (conscripted soldier class or possibly the occupying knightly class?) You might want to start with studying your target group-soldier/class as it also existed elsewhere at the same time. There is a feature article here on the Italian Renaissance Armies that might be of interest. http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_armies_italy.html There are great Italian statues of Milanese cavalry from this era (look at a couple of the ones of Bartolomeo Colleoni.) Leonardo da Vinci’s II Condottiero (circa 1480) is a bizarre ornate cavalry example!
| Bruno Giordan wrote: |
| Venice was influenced by its greek adriatic dominions, in that it adopted barbutes that had an ancestor in the corynthian helm, at least according to what is common knowledge today.
I wonder if this is so true because corynthian helmets had been dismissed at the end of the freedom period of Greece, when it fell under roman rule: there is an at least one and half thousands year hiatus between the corynthian helms and the renaissance barbutes, so i wonder if such helms were instead inspired by renaissance studies of the ancient greek civilization, rather than by a contact with greek armourers. Perhaps some originals were rediscovered by antiquari, the first renaissance scholars of the ancient classical civilization, as this is the moment of the flourishing of such studies. As of Sicily itself, its distance from Venice is considerable, politically they were never united. |
If you look at examples of original Barbutas, the idea that their evolution to their neo-classical style had anything to do with being Southern may be a bit hard to support. Glancing at Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight here's what I've come up with. There is on page 107 two Italian Barbutas. The first is a T-faced and is Milanese, dated from 1445. The second is dated the same, but has a close resemblance to a Corinthian helm. It is also Milanese. The T-faced barbute with the Avant Harness also dates similarly and was made in Milan for the Churburg castle, also in Northern Italy. Your saying that the "Venice was influenced by its greek adriatic dominions, in that it adopted barbutas that had an ancestor in the corynthian helm" is a bit skewed considering Northern Italians obviously favored the use of Barbutas similarly, not to mention the single Corinthian style I can find is Northern. This does not support the idea that there is Greek influence in Venetian or other Southern Italian armies.
A Venetian sallet is shown in a plate on page 14 of Italian Medieval Armies 1300-1500, by David Nicolle. It's a T-faced (not Corinthian) and is also suspected to be made in Milan, with Milanese influence. It looks extremely similar to the Northern examples I mentioned earlier. On page 39 of this book an image from the Stibbert Collection in Florence is shown, and both helmets shown on the reconstructed mannequins are open-faced. The armour they've got dates to the late 15th century, and the figures are noted as being "Venetian and Southern German."
Both Tobias Capwell and David Edge consider barbutas a distinct style of Italian sallet. The single "Corinthian" style I can find is actually Milanese. I find it unreasonable to associate the evolution of the "Corinthian" barbute with a Southern Italian influence, and can't even find anything to make me think that the style was favored there, yet. I'll keep my eye out for any more information I may come across, though.
-Gregory-
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