I am interested in any information on the sheilds portrayed in the John Derrick plates in which "the English put the Irish army to flight". The sheilds used by the irish appear to be steel,are they? What kind of sheilds are these? What time period were they used in ireland? When were they first introduced? What were there dimensions? How were they used and did any other troops use them besides the cavalry? Can I get an authentic reproduction today? Any and all information would be appreciated. Thanks.

http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Galler...eland.html

Judging by the fact that the woodcuts appear to be from either the late 16th C or the 17th c, I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that the shields are rotellas. They are indeed metal, and seem to have been a 16th and 17th century style. I don't think one can get any more specific about when they were introduced than this, since we don't really know. It's quite possible that the Irish didn't even carry them, and that what you are seeing is depictions of an Irish army with military equipment that was familiar to an English wood cut maker. They're probably around the same size as a Viking shield, so anywhere between 1 and a half to 3 feet wide. Mercenary's Tailor sells them http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...cts_id=77, as does Arms and Armor of Minnesota: http://www.arms-n-armor.com/armor021.html

See here for more info: http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_shield.html

By the way, is there any reason why the title of your post refers to such a broad period in history?

Hi Kevin....... The Irish used Targes very similar to the Scottish ones, both decended from the Viking shield, up to fairly late ( not sure exactly when the last Irish dude used one ) ..... but it seems to me that the Irish are asking the same questions ! There doesent seem to be many (recent) books on Irish gear and most of the info seems to be tucked away in the old Journals of the Royal Irish Association. Funding out about Irish gear is a bit like trying to find a proverbial Lepracon. You can try asking Niall Murray from ......http://www.geocities.com/na_degad/ ...... he's very helpful.
In the Johm Derrick plates, the Hobilar troopers are retreating with the (steel) shields slung over their backs to try and deflect English lances . These, I'm sure, would have been taken from English troops and had the St.George cross quickly scrubbed off. As far as I know, most basic Kern still used the Targe........they certinally wouldnt have thrown them away as the Irish were quite traditional, but the English could have destroyrd them at sometime as they did in Scotland.

Cheers

See this thread:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ight=irish

I haven't updated since the original post, so you'll have to use the Search function to find more recent discussion of Irish arms.

"By the way, is there any reason why the title of your post refers to such a broad period in history?"

Yes the reason is I'm currently interested in all Irish arms and armour used during the Gaelic resurgence.

Craig wrote
"It's quite possible that the Irish didn't even carry them, and that what you are seeing is depictions of an Irish army with military equipment that was familiar to an English wood cut maker"

This is an interresting theory. I had not thought about that. Does anyone know of any other sources for these type of shields being used by the irish? Maybe a museum piece? Other paintings? Bog finds? River finds? Anything?

Craig, I'm afraid you're probably correct. The Derricke images are more in the nature of propaganda than factual images. The impression of the English troops is mostly right, just some little bits are out. The amount of armour shown being worn is excessive, most pike threw away the arm pieces, shoulder and lames because they were cumbersome. The shot didn't bother with helmets. There are no coats or cassocks shown being worn even thro they were always issued to all troops meant for Ireland. There is no evidence "Border" Horse wore mail shirts that I've seen. Light Horse were meant to wear jacks or back and breastplate with sleeves of mail. I've yet to find anything that shows that Light Horse were issued shields. I'm alwyas not impressed by the image of Demi Lancers shown on the march, I don't think anyone was daft enough to summon Demi Lancers to serve in Ireland!

The Irish are overblown and somewhat idealised. I'd doubt the clothing shown, without some stronger evidence!

After some thought on this, I think that it is possible that Irish hobilars didn't even use shields. Kevin, I seem to remember you had a reference from a Spanish visitor in 1396, and he describes the equipment of Irish cavalry as, lances, swords, long knives, mail shirts, and round iron helms (like those of the moors or saracens), but no mention of shields. So it's possible that the person who gave shields to the horsemen from the images was wrong, I mean he also has the kerns armed with axes, when they should be armed with spears, javelins, and darts.