In Chad Arnow's description of the helmets in his personal collection, he states that both lack the sort of lining or suspension systems that would be necessary to actually wear them. I can see the problem with the burgonet, but the great helm? I know that many open type helmets used suspension systems to keep them in place, but I thought that great helms, like the one Chad owns, and like the one in my avatar, etc. were intended to be squeezed on over a rather thick arming cap and maille coif, essentially negating the need for internal padding or suspension. :eek: :?: I am not even close to being an armour expert, but I have yet to see a full-face helmet (great, "sugarloaf", etc.) for sale with lining, padding or suspension. :\ Were the originals in fact made with theses features, and most modern armourers just leaving them out, or are there historic examples of both lined and unlined great helms? :)

Claude Blair (an authority on arms and armour) writes that such helms were invariably worn over arming caps, cerevillieres (metal caps that is to turn ito the bascinet) and/or coif. But he contends that these is little doubt that the great helms had their own lining as well. The helms also had chin straps that held them in place. He based his conclusion on studying surviving helms wich bear remnants of lining and straps (or most likely the places for attachments of such linings).

I hope that helps.

Alexi

Interesting. A great helm with padding and a chin strap would seem a bit more functional than the steel "bucket" reproductions that we see today. For those who engage in "real" combat (with blunts and such) such a helm would seem quite desirable. I would think that even a collector (or "wannabe" collector", like myself :lol: ) who perphaps never wears their armour would want the most historically-accurate stuff possible. It makes me wonder why most modern armourers seem to leave these features out? :?: :)

I managed to find a picture of a suspension system which has been added to a fantasy helm - I've seen similar done to a great helm, but is "looser" to accomodate the person's arming cap, cerevilliere, and coif. Giving credit where credit is due... this piece is the Snow Giant helm done by Lars Hansen and is available through Albion / Filmswords. While this one appears to be padded, the one for the great helm would likely not be if all of the under-bits were worn. It looks like it is constructed similar to a football cut in half and unstitched...

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Also, here are two different versions of the under-armour cap (both available from Albion - again, credit where credit is due).

Conical:
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Rounded:
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I have a Sugar Loaf Helm that I got at a bargain price that also has no lining that I mostly have for display purposes so I haven't attempted to add a lining.

I also have an Albion arming cap, the round one, for a 24" head that works well over my coif: Unfortunatly this Sugar Loaf Helm is just a bit too small to fit over it. Maybe a 22" or 23" Cervelière would work? Just check for compatible sizes if you want to use both at the same time. If you buy them from Albion at the same time they can match the sizes to make sure they are compatible.

An interesting note, my Valentine Armouries Eye Slot Kettle Hat has a light suspension system with no padding needed, made as shown in the previous post. This suspension leave a large bubble of air under the Kettle hat and helps with air circulation.

This Kettle hat will fit easily over my Cervelière and sits a bit higher on the head this way: Tilted back, vision is 100% unobstructed and titled forward a bit it covers the upper face very well. When worn by itself the eye slots give good situational awareness and excellent protection to the upper face and can also be tilted back for better vision.

Just interesting to have the option of wearing both for extra protection and the option of using the Cervelière by itself or over a coif.

Greath helms were "typically" worn over other pieces of protective gear (arming cap , maille coife, perhaps a second larger paded cap , steel,iron skull cap) but often had they're own suspension system as well. Lacing the lining in through pairs of holes in the helmet was a fairly common method of holding the lining in these types of helmets. One of the reasons IMO that this helmet type is usually sold unlined today is that for a fair number of groups that do some version or simulation of combat (SCA ect.)there are guidlines for how much "padding" is required inside and the great helm familly is easy to pad up with sport foam or what have you and meet "safety"specs.

While these helms were often worn over some other kind of protective gear, I have no doubt that they also had their own means of suspension and securement. A good blow would cause the helm to shift on your head without it.

This has always been one of my favorite types of helm. It's so characteristic of a particular era in history. However, I wore one exactly one time during a reinactment event. That was enough for me!

Patrick;

I know what you mean as I have used bunched up towells in the Sugar Loaf Helm just to try it on: The level of visibility is sort of low and after 5 minutes one gets the feeling that sucking up air is a strain. Another reason to wear a Cervelière is that the Great Helm might be worn only for short period at a time for a charge or in a melee !?

It sure make me understand why a good Kettle hat was popular and supplemented by a Bevor the level of protection is as good as with the Great Helm.

Ok, so for those of us who don't have a blacksmith shop in the backyard or down the block, (or maybe are bit on the clumsy side)- is there anybody out there who will add a liner for you? What would the cost be? I have a great helm and a sallet that need liners and chin straps. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Scott

Interestingly enough, Mercenary's Tailor offers the sallet pictured below "fully-lined and strapped," while their great helm is described as "unpadded and unlined, and designed to be worn over an arming cap and coif." :eek: :mad: Grrrrrrrrrr.....
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P.S. I, too, would like to know if there is anybody out there who will add lining/padding and strapping to a great helm. :)

Just to comment on the visibility issue:

If you look at the literary sources and the artistic evidence (at least what I've seen) then it appears to me that most great helms are recreated incorrectly. If you take a close look at the Albion Mark Great Helm and then the Maciejowski bible great helm prototype you can see that the ocularium on the Maciejowski bible version is easily twice as long. This jives more with the visibility we would expect to see with a sallet or other type of helm. The fact is, if you have just those rectangular eye slits facing forwards then you get no peripheral vision. And yet, most of the artist renditions of period great helms seem to indicate a longer ocularium which would provide for that peripheral vision. Even the Manesse codex which has frontal views of those blocky looking eyeslits seems to indicate a longer ocularium in the profile views of the combatants.

Alina;

Yes the eye slots "ocularium" do seem rather small and blocky on the example shown and would give very limited peripheral vision. The Sugar Loaf Helm I tried on has very wide ocularium as you describe and peripheral vision is not limited by it being very narrow, but when I compare with my Eye Slot Kettle Hat I have much less a feeling of obstructed vision with the kettle hat.

The ocularium of my kettle hat is even narrower and a bit shorter than the one on the Great Helm ! So how can this contradiction be explained? Well, because of the angle of the brim in relation to the eye, the brim is almost seen edge on and everything below the top edge of the eye slot is perceived as unobstructed: The brim below the slot is seen as a narrow out of focus line.

With the Great Helm it feel more like a solid wall in front of your face with a slot in it, the breathing holes do add a small amount of awareness of movement. Now with other helms using larger breaths vision might be better.

Hope this helps, it may not prove anything about helms in general but it is my direct experience with these two specific helms.

Oh, lastly, a well fitted helm should position the eyes as close to the ocularium as possible, as even a very narrow slit works well when close to the eye. ( And an unlined, unfitted display type helm may not represent the best example on which to come to a final conclusion. )

Actually, the openings in the great helm I pictured above are the narrowest (horizontally) that I've ever seen. I used that particular photo because it was handy at the time, and also because I was lamenting the fact that Mercenary's Tailor (the maker of both pictured helms) adds lining and strapping to their sallet, but not their great helm. :) Every other great helm I've seen has had fairly generous openings. One of the best I've seen in this area is the great helm offered by Illusion Armoring, right here in Arizona (no, I don't work for them! :lol: ). Here it is:
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Looks like good visibility to me. :)

G.

Could be wrong, but I'm 99% certain that Allan at Mercenary's Tailor could and would add some liner or suspension system if requested for a small extra charge. If worn over a Cervelière using one of those donut shaped padded rings a suspension system is not needed. But if one wants to use it by itself a suspension system would be needed.

Just drop a line to Mike at Albion and ask!

And as with my Kettle Hat the suspension system would work instead of the "donut" thing. Must have a name .... But, I obviously don't know it ...... :lol:

Here's a nice one from Medieval Reproductions. Pricey but nice looking.

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