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Mackenzie Cosens
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Location: Vancouver Canada Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 238
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Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2012 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Randall:
Many people who study Fiore believe that the dagger is the foundation weapon of the system. If it is the foundation weapon of the system then lesson it teaches are applied to all weapons in the system. If this true then I believe the section I quoted does apply to battlefield scenarios, since I hold to the opinion that Fiore's art would be as valid on the battle field as it would be in the lists.
But I think we can agree that running off on the battle field with nothing but a dagger would be rather loony if not a ballsy thing to do.
I don't think anyone is claiming that a dagger penetrates armour, the translations says something like armour is useless against it , and in my own opinion you attack the places the armour isn't or is is weak and the dagger is very fast and it is speed that makes is so difficult to defend against. But I think this is common knowledge.
Yes, Fiore show us how to defeat a dagger attack with a sheathed sword, he also show defend against as sword attack with a dagger, multiple attackers even. As long as they attack you one at a time.
Fiore does like sexy language, or at least the translations I have read suggest so, I envy your skill to read it in the original language. I am not sure it is so much a sales pitch as an interesting read, but I am bias because Fiore was the first historic sword master I read.
Quote: | I am the sword and I am lethal against any weapon: lances, axes, and daggers are worthless against me. I can become extended or withdrawn when I get near opponents I can enter into close play perform disarms and abrazare. Art is to turn and bind. I am expert in defense and offense and always strive to finish in those. Come against me and feel pain. I am Royal enforce justice propagate goodness and destroy evil. Look at me as a cross and I will give you fame and name in art of arms. | (trans Leoni, 2009)
I would argue that this isn't simply a sales pitch, we get the trash talk "bestest weapon ever" part which is pretty much the same as the dagger, but then we get what makes the sword special its flexibility and its connection with royalty, honour and Christianity but with the dagger we get that it is quick, deadly, armour is useless against it and that it teaches the subtlety of the the use of arms amount other things.
In the section of the Getty just before Fiore describes his ninja power he give some useful titbits about the poll-axe.
Quote: | I am the Axe, heavy, cruel and lethal, and I deliver bigger blows then any other handheld weapon. If I miss with my first attack, the axe becomes a useless liability. Bit if I don't miss my axe can come to the rescue of any other handheld weapon. If I am accompanied by good weapons I can defend with pulsative guards of the sword. |
Again this does not sound like "bestest weapon ever" sales pitch. It also tells you that if you miss with your first attack you are in deep doodoo. I am not sure what to make of the "come to the rescue" comment or the "accompanied by good weapons" unless it is referenced to it use on the battle field and having armed friends, or perhaps the "accompanied by good weapons" is a mistranslation and should be "accompanied by good armour".
In any-case, if Fiore is right in his description, I do not think that I would want to carry a weapon that requires my first attack to succeed since it's my experience that when I fight a competent opponent it is rare that my first attack succeeds.
OK that's too much writing.
I would pick a spear or lighter polearm. Silver says the Welch Hooke or Forest Bill is the bestest weapon every, so I will pick one of those. They have the added advantage of no one really knows what they are.
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Randall Moffett
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Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Mackenzie,
I would not argue against it being foundational. I think every one has to create a system that is for them useful. That said I think in some ways because perhaps it has a number of rather complicated but similar positions to other weapons and the thought of starting students with poll axes is just scary in many ways.
I do agree that many of his training can transition well into battle he was not writting of this. Look at his dagger section and almost the entire time it is one on one fighting, many of which he states are not good in armour, though some work for both or as he states better in armour. It is also note worthy that so many of his attacks with dagger seem to rely on getting to the guy before his sword is drawn. First how likely is that to work in battle where men, my guess at least, have weapons in hand by the melee and two seems to indicate you will find life hard once that weapon is out.
I think avoiding armour is a fine way of defeating armour, the gent in armour whether dead or injured is still defeated. But trying to wrested a guy to a place to do this in a battlefield to me seems unlikely as the most effective way of doing this. I have seen two handed poll axes, halbards, bills and maces literally send the force needed to shatter or crack a cow skull through ballistic gell, through a 3mm helmet.
I think he likely was the first historic sword master that left this much behind for us, but remember this is what gets their name out and puts them in interest over others and ultimately puts food on the table. If he did not have something to set him apart from other men teaching these arts then he'd starve and have to go back to doing what other men of his class did. I still think the issue remains that he is not stating that any are best, though I had forgotten about the poll axe missing and being useless granted. Considering he has several ways to repose from a miss I am rather surprised he says this but I will have to look at it again.
I have to admit learning latin and spanish made it so reading much of his work was easier but there are some real dictionary worth words in there that took some looking to find. Yet it is the only weapon that as the original poster asked can penetrate armour according to Fiore.
Not sure what Silver has to say about the hook or any other weapons ability to penetrate armour. That has been far too long in the past for me to remember.
RPM
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Robert Rytel
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Location: Pittsburgh Joined: 23 Oct 2011
Posts: 32
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Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Nobody said flail yet? I'm disappointed.
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Mark Gates
Location: United Kingdom Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 18
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Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2012 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Has anyone considered the humble flail? In my opinion, the flail, if the user is well trained can deliver massive damage primarily due to the potentially enormous forces of acceleration involved. In the heat of close quarters combat with a heavily armoured opponent, a well connected attack from a flail would cause a significant amount of blunt force trauma.
Just imagine another scenario, a mounted knight at speed landing a flail attack struck with force and momentum would be devastating.
On the other hand, it is arguable a flail would be difficult to aim accurately due to the disconnected feel of the ball and chain design and its rather poor defensive capabilities.
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Bartek Strojek
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Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2012 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Flail striking part doesn't really hit with that immense force - due to hinged connection the very end of it can achieve pretty high velocity, but at the same time there just isn't enough mass behind it.
There's no direct connection to the arm and the rest of the weapon, so the momentum during the blow is limited by the mass, and it has a lot of give due to flexibility of the chain/rope.
So actual effects of flail strikes are somehow difficult to predict, don't think anyone had performed really serious experiments.
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Mackenzie Cosens
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Location: Vancouver Canada Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 238
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Posted: Mon 18 Jun, 2012 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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I just looked at the tread heading "Which Was The Most Lethal One Handed Anti Plate Weapon?", and my choices don't fit because they are two handed. Spear, at least late 14C early 15th C form, appear to be mostly used two handed as would Silvers staff weapons. The one handed requirement would technically disqualify pole-axe too. And although I like the dagger, I think Randall arguments have enough merit to pick something different. How about a single handed war-hammer?
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Although looking at San Romano images makes me think, warhorse couched lance (its only held in one hand ) and lots of similar equipped friends might be the way to go.
If you allow that cuirassier are wearing plate then perhaps a close range pistol shot, would work.
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Ryan S.
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Posted: Tue 19 Jun, 2012 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I think war hammer is the best answer, because it is actually "anti-plate" (and one handed), other weapons may defeat the enemy with out breaking the plate, but I don't know what else will break the plate. wait, do lances count as one handed?
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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Posted: Tue 19 Jun, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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One of the authors Sydney Anglo surveys wrote apparently wrote that cavalry hammers could penetrate armor but tended to get stuck afterwards. Bertrandon de la Broquière estimated that a Turkish cavalry mace could kayo through a helmet if swung freely (this could mean multiple blows). The mace was one of the three iconic knightly weapons in sixteenth-century France, though I know of no evidence to indicate that horsemen preferred it over the sword.
Infantry in the age of plate virtually never used one-handed maces or hammers to my knowledge.
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Chase Bolling
Location: United States Joined: 15 Jun 2012
Posts: 20
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Posted: Fri 22 Jun, 2012 12:40 pm Post subject: Could these be knightslayers? |
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How would the following weapons if forged with proper weight distribution to do the job fare against an opponent in plate armor?
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This is called a Boumali gbaya and it looks like it will hurt you helmet or no
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Not historically accurate but if you used the wrong side and moved the point of balance closer to the spike I think this would be awesome for blunt trauma
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Brought up this tinker falchion in a previous thread....i think with a little playing with the balance like a hollow pommel and a little center of gravity magic it could be special.
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With proper balancing this could be a monster also.
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Reminds me of a bec de corbin in a sword blade.
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Bartek Strojek
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Posted: Fri 22 Jun, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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None of those really has 'spike', geometry that would be very well suited to actually trying to break trough solid plate. Flat, broad protrusions that concentrate the energy, but it's still spread along quite a lot of the lenght of the edge.
Which is understandable, since they're some more 'fancy' variations about swords/choppers.
Balancing them way down the blade would certainly give option of some very hard swings, but would also obviously limit all other handling options.
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Chase Bolling
Location: United States Joined: 15 Jun 2012
Posts: 20
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Posted: Fri 22 Jun, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Spikes have a tendency to get stuck I was looking at these weapons more for blunt trauma beatings and denting armor.... more like the flanges or knobs on a mace the the spike on a hammer although I would like the see some top spikes on the kora, mondo sword and boumali gbaya so that they can utilize the thrust. Furthermore your other options for facing armored combatants (maces and hammers )wouldn't handle like feathers anyway.So I'm not fully interested in retaining sword like handling if it means the ability to be effective against more types opponents.
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Timo Nieminen
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Posted: Fri 22 Jun, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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For the African swords you show, to turn them into even remotely effective anti-armour weapons, you'd have to turn them into completely different weapons. Changing the weight distribution wouldn't be enough; you'd have to make them much heavier.
With the Tinker falchion, moving the CoM away from the hilt by lightening the pommel won't help - you won't get any more rotational inertia about the grip (you'll get a little less, making it less effective).
The kora (the bottom one, the Nepalese one) is the closest to what you are after of the historical ones. I wouldn't trust it to pierce plate far enough to do anything useful. Might make a small puncture. But you don't have a narrow spike, you have a wide (and thin) spike. The width makes it take a lot of energy to drive in far enough to be effective, while the thinness makes it likely to crumple.
Now, you can imagine weapons in the approximate shape of historical ones, with the weight and weight distribution of a warhammer, and they'll strike with the same energy as a warhammer (ignoring that a blade-shaped haft might have to be so thin to get a warhammer weight distribution that it would be too flexible). But the blade-like penetrators aren't very good. Yes, it would work better plate than hitting with a sword, but not as well as it could for that weight and weight distribution. I think it wouldn't work well enough.
Better is a square-section spike (or triangular-section). With a moderate weight behind the spike, it will be usable one-handed (with a lot of weight, it won't be). At this point, you have a one-handed warhammer. These aren't very heavy, and they shouldn't be, or nobody will stay around long enough to be hit.
Want more effective? Go two-handed. Two-handed hammers (still not heavy - the long haft lets you get a lot of speed), or other spiked polearms (the points on bills go straight through thin armour that stops swords - haven't tried one on heavy armour). Want more weight? That will make it easier to pierce the armour, if the target stays there to be hit. Get a sledgehammer, drill a hole in the head, and put in a spike. Hard steel, triangular or square section, long and thin. Hit armour, drive in spike up to the hammer face. Not the most practical of weapons.
The same idea - two handed force and some mass - works with thrusting as well. Lots of polearms, the godendag, the estoc.
If you're after blunt trauma through plate, then you don't want spikes/blades - those will make it more likely that your weapon gets stuck. If you want to inflict blunt trauma with minimum weight, put the weight at the end of the haft. Thus, mace. Hit as fast as you can - a horse will help here.
Want more mass? Use two hands. Sledgehammer without a spike. A heavy iron bar (e.g., the Japanese tetsubo). Too heavy, and you won't hit a live target.
A 1kg steel ball isn't very big. Stick that on the end of a haft, and you have a one-handed mace. Even with a ball rather than flanges, you're still striking with a small object.
The brief summary is:
- Square/triangular section penetrator is better than a blade-like penetrator.
- Too little weight means not enough energy
- Too much weight means its impractical as a weapon (but good against armour)
- Spikes/flanges won't help much, if at all, with blunt trauma through plate.
(Warhammers that a plausibly one-handed seem to vary in weight from 600g to 2200g, and maces from 900g to 1700g. Maybe the heavier warhammers are two-handed, but they're not long-hafted polearms. About 1.3-1.5 kg is common for both - about the weight of heavy one-handed swords, but more weight towards the striking end. These are all European.)
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Chase Bolling
Location: United States Joined: 15 Jun 2012
Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon 25 Jun, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I've read that the bill was highly effective as a poll arm, would it have any worth as a hand weapon or against armor outside the obvious value of being able to hook and pull to the ground?
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Gary Teuscher
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Posted: Mon 25 Jun, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Mackenzie Cousins wrote:
Quote: | I don't think anyone is claiming that a dagger penetrates armour, the translations says something like armour is useless against it , and in my own opinion you attack the places the armour isn't or is is weak and the dagger is very fast and it is speed that makes is so difficult to defend against. But I think this is common knowledge. |
I think as much or more than the speed of a dagger, what makes it effective against open spots is the armour is that the point is mush nearer to the hand, making it far easier to aim.
Srikke for a very small object with a spear in one hand, and make the object move a bit erraticaly. Try the same with a dagger - it's far easier.
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Robin Smith
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Posted: Mon 25 Jun, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Chase Bolling wrote: | Spikes have a tendency to get stuck I was looking at these weapons more for blunt trauma beatings and denting armor.... more like the flanges or knobs on a mace the the spike on a hammer although I would like the see some top spikes on the kora, mondo sword and boumali gbaya so that they can utilize the thrust. Furthermore your other options for facing armored combatants (maces and hammers )wouldn't handle like feathers anyway.So I'm not fully interested in retaining sword like handling if it means the ability to be effective against more types opponents. |
Sounds to me like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
I don't think you can have a weapon that is simultaneously versatile yet also as effective as a specialized armour piercer (relatively speaking). The traits that make it good at one are contrary to the other quality.
Why try to reinvent the wheel? Generations of men whose very lives depended on finding the most efficient ways to defeat armour never found what you are seeking...
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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Posted: Mon 25 Jun, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Robin Smith wrote: | Sounds to me like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. |
And quite stubbornly so, I might add
Quote: | I think as much or more than the speed of a dagger, what makes it effective against open spots is the armour is that the point is mush nearer to the hand, making it far easier to aim. |
Also, because the tip is nearer the hand, it is easier to resist lateral forces that are applied to the tip if you don't hit perfectly square on the target. So it is less easy to make it slide away.
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Gary Teuscher
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Posted: Mon 25 Jun, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Also, because the tip is nearer the hand, it is easier to resist lateral forces that are applied to the tip if you don't hit perfectly square on the target. So it is less easy to make it slide away. |
Yep, I meant that too
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Timo Nieminen
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Posted: Mon 25 Jun, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Chase Bolling wrote: | I've read that the bill was highly effective as a poll arm, would it have any worth as a hand weapon or against armor outside the obvious value of being able to hook and pull to the ground? |
It would work as a hand weapon. One-handed bills are usually very short, and have no thrusting point. Put a spike on it if you want to thrust. But perhaps something like the kama (Japanese sickle) would be better - much lighter, and thus faster.
If you make it longer, and aim for a good fighting weight, you'll get, more or less, a kora sword.
As a polearm, the bill is very good against armour, but that's because the long haft lets you move the head very fast. You'll lose this with a one-handed one.
You could get a cheap one (they still make them, and you might find cheap second-hand ones), and hit some steel with it, and see how it goes. (Get a proper one-handed bill, not a billhook shaped machete! There's a lot of variation in weight in the "proper" ones, but the machete ones will be lighter than any proper one of similar size.)
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
Last edited by Timo Nieminen on Mon 25 Jun, 2012 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Harley
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Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 94
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Posted: Mon 25 Jun, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Degrees of lethality? Which one kills you the most dead?
Yeah, yeah, I'm a pedantic so-and-so.
Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth - Frank Zappa
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Chase Bolling
Location: United States Joined: 15 Jun 2012
Posts: 20
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Posted: Tue 26 Jun, 2012 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Lol Michael I just wanted to settle an argument between me and my jarhead buddy... not which one kills you the most dead but which has a better chance of killing the person fastest I guess.
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