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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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 Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | David Teague wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | David Teague wrote: |
A "Zwerchhau" is only performed with a 2 handed weapon in the German system with a thumb grip.
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There are single handed zwerchaus in the system, David. A simple example is the fourth technique of Lignitzer's sword and buckler. There are also zwerchaus in messer.
Whether you use the thumb on the blade with these single hand zwerchs is a matter of interpretation. I use it. |
Please reread my post. I think you missed something major. |
Ah, I see, caught the messer bit this time.
However, there is a single handed zwerchhau, called zwerchhau, in Lignitzer's sword and buckler. |
Well crap then... 
that's what I get for falling for the "facts" that messer and arming sword has a number of different terms.
(They do, BTW) Only one of the 5 messer guards shares the same name as a longsword guard.
But, Bill keeps calling a flat middle cut a "zwerchau" when it's not.
Also, I think you'll find any of the one handed weapons needs the thumb grip for best control and power. Whenever a
student tries the Entrüsthau with a standard grip it fails badly in my messer study group.
Now... one question. Does Lignitzer's text call it a zwerchhau in period? Or did somebody substitute the term during their translation in to English?
Cheers,
DT
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: |
Now... one question. Does Lignitzer's text call it a zwerchhau in period? Or did somebody substitute the term during their translation in to English?
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I don’t have the Ringeck transcription, but Christian Tobler translates it as:
From the Mittelhau: Strike the Zwerch to both sides and the Scheitelhau with the long edge, and then thrust to his groin.
Since he’s not in the habit of substituting perfectly good German words, I can only assume it says zwerch in the original text.
In Von Dangiz, the passage reads as follows:
Item aus dem mittelhaw | mach die twer zw paiden seitten | vnd den schaitlär mit der langen schneid | vnd stich ÿm vnden zw seinem gemächt –
Von Danzig uses “twer” or “twer hau” in place of zwerchhau, so the terminology is consistent between longsword and sword and buckler.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: |
But, Bill keeps calling a flat middle cut a "zwerchau" when it's not.
DT |
90% of the time when we are making that cut to the right side it is with the hilt and blade at eye level because we need to get over the shield of our opponent. In the video I posted of Duke Gregor, he got his opponent lower his shield and bring his sword over to compensate. In response Gregor lowered his zwerch to shoulder level because that is where the hole was.
Zwerch to the left side has no thumb issues or edge choice to consider.
I find it hard to believe that the techniques are recorded in historical manuals did not allow a person to adjust to events that unfold in the fight. In the video you posted of yourself fighting, you certainly adjusted you shots to fit the fight.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: |
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As much as I like what the Duke did, I don't really by that he adjusted such a fast strike on the fly. I think he got lucky that his sword went under the defender's sword, or that he anticipated that and his anticipation proved correct. Luck is an important part of fencing. It was a great shot, but I just don't see how the adjustment you describe is possible.
If he can think and move that fast while moving that fast, he's not human, and he looks very human in all other respects. He has two legs and arms and everything. 
You will no doubt claim this is so, but I will not believe you so, so let's save ourselves the trouble.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | As much as I like what the Duke did, I don't really by that he adjusted such a fast strike on the fly. I think he got lucky that his sword went under the defender's sword, or that he anticipated that and his anticipation proved correct. Luck is an important part of fencing. It was a great shot, but I just don't see how the adjustment you describe is possible.
If he can think and move that fast while moving that fast, he's not human, and he looks very human in all other respects. He has two legs and arms and everything.
You will no doubt claim this is so, but I will not believe you so, so let's save ourselves the trouble. |
He's not human. He does that almost every week to me at practice.
That low riser is a bread and butter shot of Dukes and Knights. I'm still trying to learn to do it half as good after four years.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | David Teague wrote: |
But, Bill keeps calling a flat middle cut a "zwerchau" when it's not.
DT |
90% of the time when we are making that cut to the right side it is with the hilt and blade at eye level because we need to get over the shield of our opponent. In the video I posted of Duke Gregor, he got his opponent lower his shield and bring his sword over to compensate. In response Gregor lowered his zwerch to shoulder level because that is where the hole was.
Zwerch to the left side has no thumb issues or edge choice to consider.
I find it hard to believe that the techniques are recorded in historical manuals did not allow a person to adjust to events that unfold in the fight. In the video you posted of yourself fighting, you certainly adjusted you shots to fit the fight. |
Bill,
My point is you are (mis) applying German terminology IMO. Mittelhau is the term that applies to the cuts that you keep calling a Zwerchhau.
This is from Von Danzig 1452
| Quote: | | And the Zwerchhau should be done thus. When you come to him in the Zufechten, then stand with your left foot forward and hold your sword on your right shoulder. If he stands against you and holds his sword with outstretched arms up over his head and threatens to strike from above to you, then come to him first with your stroke, and spring with your right foot well to your right side toward him. And as you spring, wind your sword so that the hilt is before your head with your thumb underneath and strike with the short edge against the left side of his head. |
Note, thumb and short edge.
I'm not sure where you got " historical manuals did not allow a person to adjust to events that unfold in the fight" in any of my prior posts...  Never said that.
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: |
So if your primary objection is based on overcommitment, and I put forth that overcommitment that one should be able to strike with full power without overcommitting, whether to langenort or or a lower ward, then do you still object? |
Nope, I don´t.
If you can strike with full power and still have controll, you should do so.
If you can´t do it with control, go for controll before power.
But as you pointed out, our interpretations is mostly based on Ringeck, that´s why we fight as we do, and it works for us at the moment. But nothing is written in stone. Our fencing is still evolving, the more we learn.
Anders "Nelle" Nilsson, Instructor Angermanna Mnhfs
To train martial arts without fighting is like slalom without snow.
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Anders Nilsson wrote: |
If you can strike with full power and still have controll, you should do so.
If you can´t do it with control, go for controll before power. |
That's a great way of putting it. I agree completely.
My objection to the general objection to using full power is that it is assumed that full power equates to overcommitment. Such an assumption, I think, robs one of the opportunity to strive for both full power and control.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: | | Bill Grandy can tell us what it's called with an arming sword (I think). Bill? |
Well, Mike already addressed that: Its called a zwerchhau. And yes, it was called a zwerch (or twerch) in period.
| Quote: | | Later 14th and 15th German sword and buckler have that move, but once again if done with a messer and buckler it's called a "Entrüsthau". |
Actually, we don't know that it was always called an Entrüsthau in all teachings of the messer. The first time we see that term is with Lecküchner, who may have "invented" the term to differentiate from his seemingly Liechtenauer background. The term is used sometimes by other masters after him (such as Meyer). Before that, there's no known evidence of the name of this strike for the messer. Talhoffer just says "the turned hand", for instance. So I don't think its fair to draw hard conclusions on whether this was called a zwerchhau or not.
Earlier there was the question about whether a zwerchhau uses a long edge: Only if you are striking from the left (assuming you are right handed). If you are striking from the right side, then we are explicitly told by the masters to use the short edge.
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Zwerch to the left side has no thumb issues or edge choice to consider. |
Actually, Joachim Meyer in the 16th century sometimes advocated a zwerchhau to that side with the short edge. It seems peculiar, but with some practice it works quite nicely.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Since we've already gone off topic about this anyway:
To assume that cutting past langen ort is somehow wrong is to assume that *EVERY* two handed sword system is wrong. Fiore does it. Marozzo does it. Japanese, Chinese and Korean schools do it.
Further, if you're using Ringeck, how can you use his nebenhut plays if you don't ever cut down to nebenhut? And what's the point of alber, one of the four primary guards, if you never cut to it?
As Mike says, there's a huge difference between overpowering a strike and using full strength. The latter doesn't automatically equate to losing control the way many people are automatically assuming.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: |
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Zwerch to the left side has no thumb issues or edge choice to consider. |
Actually, Joachim Meyer in the 16th century sometimes advocated a zwerchhau to that side with the short edge. It seems peculiar, but with some practice it works quite nicely. |
That's interesting. Fast Eddie was trying to teach me to do it that way. I have not met anyone one else who uses it... but Eddie was one of the best in SCA history. He said it was a shot he used often when he actively competed. It has the benefit of getting around the shield because you are now leading with the thumb. Kind of a wrap on the off-side. I can do the shot on a pell but not in a fight. I never expected to hear a Renaissance Master advocate it.
David- Like I said Gregor sometimes does his right side Zwerch with the short edge. I have done it too on occasion and I know a squire that really favors it. Doing it with the short edge when in close has a big advantage. Personally, I have other shots I prefer to use in close, but if my opponent has a tight defense and I get a second to think, I will pull it out of my bag of tricks. If I do it with my hilt high and the point low I can really get deep behind a shield.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | Since we've already gone off topic about this anyway:
To assume that cutting past langen ort is somehow wrong is to assume that *EVERY* two handed sword system is wrong. Fiore does it. Marozzo does it. Japanese, Chinese and Korean schools do it.
Further, if you're using Ringeck, how can you use his nebenhut plays if you don't ever cut down to nebenhut? And what's the point of alber, one of the four primary guards, if you never cut to it?
As Mike says, there's a huge difference between overpowering a strike and using full strength. The latter doesn't automatically equate to losing control the way many people are automatically assuming. |
I know that are several systems that use cuts past langenort, but we rarly use it.
We rarly cut through to a guard either, we change guards in the Zufechten to find openings, I personally like Alber a lot. I use it to "fish" after openings.
It´s also about distance. When in Zufechten, I use different guards and change between them.
Once I cut I either hit, miss or end up in a bind.
If I miss or end up in a bind, I try to imediatly follow with thrusts.
If that misses, I´ll start with halfsword, pommelstrikes, wrestling, kicking punhcing etc.
If that doesn´t work, I´ll abzug to zufechten and start all over again.
If me or my oponent closes to krieg without striking I´ll change guard to either phlug or ochs, to threaten with my point.
The straight line will always be faster than a cut, so once close, I try to always threaten with the point.
Thats why we try to not cut past langenort. If i´ll cut past langenort, my point will not be threatening my oponent, and that leaves me open. If I keep my point toward my oponent, I´m still threatening him, and he has to deal with my point before he can attack me.
That at least how we have interpreted it what is said in the manuals. Some clubs train as we, some don´t, and I can´t say that something is right or wrong. Whaterver works in sparring with intent is right for you as a fighter.
Here are some sparringclips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTeWgvAZxww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLF8r2oIgFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCrVfDDr-iY&feature=related
Anders "Nelle" Nilsson, Instructor Angermanna Mnhfs
To train martial arts without fighting is like slalom without snow.
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Anders Nilsson wrote: | The straight line will always be faster than a cut, so once close, I try to always threaten with the point.
Thats why we try to not cut past langenort. If i´ll cut past langenort, my point will not be threatening my oponent, and that leaves me open. If I keep my point toward my oponent, I´m still threatening him, and he has to deal with my point before he can attack me. |
Then what is the purpose of having guards that do not have the point towards the enemy? Why not start in longpoint and thrust? And do rapier fencing instead ?
I have my own answers to these questions but they hinge on the fact that there is some cutting power used, and thus that at least sometimes full cuts are to be used...
| Quote: | | Whaterver works in sparring with intent is right for you as a fighter. |
Arguably sparring does not enforce cutting techniques, especially not follow-through, because for obvious reasons we cannot cut through our partners Half-cuts might well be unrealistically favored in modern sparring...
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Anders Nilsson wrote: | The straight line will always be faster than a cut, so once close, I try to always threaten with the point.
Thats why we try to not cut past langenort. If i´ll cut past langenort, my point will not be threatening my oponent, and that leaves me open. If I keep my point toward my oponent, I´m still threatening him, and he has to deal with my point before he can attack me. |
Then what is the purpose of having guards that do not have the point towards the enemy? Why not start in longpoint and thrust? And do rapier fencing instead ?
I have my own answers to these questions but they hinge on the fact that there is some cutting power used, and thus that at least sometimes full cuts are to be used...
| Quote: | | Whaterver works in sparring with intent is right for you as a fighter. |
Arguably sparring does not enforce cutting techniques, especially not follow-through, because for obvious reasons we cannot cut through our partners Half-cuts might well be unrealistically favored in modern sparring...
Regards, |
The purpose of guards that doesn´t have the point towards the oponent is to cut. But I think that they are intended for use from Zufechten. If you are close to you oponent and try guards that doesn´t threaten with the point, you are open to be stabbed.
It aslo works in reverse, if someone is closing with ochs or phlug I can use Zwerchau, crumphau, sheilhau and Zornhau from for example Vom tag to break their guards and get the cut in.
It´s all parts of the big chess. No technic is absolute, you can never be cempletly safe. It´s about having all the tools and using them at the right time.
And I don´t really understand your second opinion, why even bother to follow-through if you have cut through your oponent. The first cut would have done the job.
I would personally like to see some of your own fencing in action. It´s quite hard to understand everything and explain my thoughts since English is not my first language.
I have posted some training bout that shows how I fight, using what I have been trying to describe.
It would be nice to see your thoughts in action as well.
Btw, what the thread about again.
Why not start a new thread and talk about longsword fencing there.
Anders "Nelle" Nilsson, Instructor Angermanna Mnhfs
To train martial arts without fighting is like slalom without snow.
Last edited by Anders Nilsson on Sat 21 Nov, 2009 5:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: |
Actually, Joachim Meyer in the 16th century sometimes advocated a zwerchhau to that side with the short edge. It seems peculiar, but with some practice it works quite nicely. |
Bill, I have been trying to find this in Meyer with no luck. I find references to Meyer's Zwechhau, but nothing about using the short edge when cutting to the left. Can you provide me with link to the translation you looked at. This cut is of great interest to me.
There is two ways I was shown how to do that shot by two separate people. One with the short edge rolling over and one with the short edge rolling under (clockwise and counter clockwise). I did not like the under variation at all because I can see it causing shoulder problems. The over version seemed to have potential but I never pursued drilling and developing it. This is something you have me rethinking now.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Anders Nilsson wrote: | | It´s all parts of the big chess. No technic is absolute, you can never be cempletly safe. It´s about having all the tools and using them at the right time. |
Absolute agreement here, but I'd keep full cuts in my toolbox...
| Quote: | | And I don´t really understand your second opinion, why even bother to follow-through if you have cut through your oponent. The first cut would have done the job. |
I meant doing a full cut instead of a half-cut, perhaps follow-through is not the right term. Some half-cuts may not be enough to do the job...
| Quote: | | I would personally like to see some of your own fencing in action. It´s quite hard to understand everything and explain my thoughts since English is not my first language. |
Well perhaps one day I'll shoot a video... But I rarely spar so far and I don't have any video equipment. For modern sparring I'd try to do just like you anyway (probably performing a lot worse  ), so this is more of a theoretical argument. If the goal is to win a modern sparring match half-cuts without telegraphing are surely the way to go, but given the amount of evidence of full cuts use I wonder how much of this superiority is an artifact. Maybe if you come to Dijon next year we'll be able to see each other in person?
Out of curiosity, do you do test-cutting as well?
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Jim Clark
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Fiore very clearly tells us to do a left horizontal cut with the false edge.
| Exiles Getty Translation, pg 43 wrote: |
Mezani blows we are called because we go through
the middle of the high and low blows. And we go
with the right edge from the right side, and from the
opposite side we go with the false edge. And our
path is from the knees to the head.
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Jim Clark
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: |
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Fiore also tells us to do both full cuts and half cuts and that cuts start from guard to end in guard.
| Exiles Getty Translation, pg 43 wrote: |
We are Fendenti and in the art we make issue of
cleaving from the teeth and to arrive at the knee with
reason. And every guard who makes itself low to the
ground, from one guard to another we go without
trouble.
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| Exiles Getty Translation, pg 43 wrote: |
And in this way we are both together for by that
path we return, [to a guard] or that we remain
in Posta Longa. [Langort]
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Anders Nilsson wrote: | | It´s all parts of the big chess. No technic is absolute, you can never be cempletly safe. It´s about having all the tools and using them at the right time. |
Absolute agreement here, but I'd keep full cuts in my toolbox...
| Quote: | | And I don´t really understand your second opinion, why even bother to follow-through if you have cut through your oponent. The first cut would have done the job. |
I meant doing a full cut instead of a half-cut, perhaps follow-through is not the right term. Some half-cuts may not be enough to do the job...
| Quote: | | I would personally like to see some of your own fencing in action. It´s quite hard to understand everything and explain my thoughts since English is not my first language. |
Well perhaps one day I'll shoot a video... But I rarely spar so far and I don't have any video equipment. For modern sparring I'd try to do just like you anyway (probably performing a lot worse ), so this is more of a theoretical argument. If the goal is to win a modern sparring match half-cuts without telegraphing are surely the way to go, but given the amount of evidence of full cuts use I wonder how much of this superiority is an artifact. Maybe if you come to Dijon next year we'll be able to see each other in person?
Out of curiosity, do you do test-cutting as well?
Regards, |
Ah, now I see what you are getting at.
I also has full cuts in my arsenal, but I rarly use them, especially against skilled oponents.
If my sparring should have been real combat I would have followed up with bigger cuts.
First get a hit, that disables my oponent, wounds him or otherwise gets him out of balance, then after that, give him a big cut. But since I sparr with friends I don´t give them that second cut. But if it was for real, I would.
I do testcutting as well. I don´t have any fotage of this. A full cut cuts a tatami in half, with a cut that stops at langenort it´s a lot harder, but if it´s cuts 3/4 it would still give the oponents quite a headache or give him trouble holding his weapon if I would hit his arms.
I´m actually planning to go to Dijon. It would be really nice to meet you.
Anders "Nelle" Nilsson, Instructor Angermanna Mnhfs
To train martial arts without fighting is like slalom without snow.
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P. Cha
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| Posted: Sat 21 Nov, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | As much as I like what the Duke did, I don't really by that he adjusted such a fast strike on the fly. I think he got lucky that his sword went under the defender's sword, or that he anticipated that and his anticipation proved correct. Luck is an important part of fencing. It was a great shot, but I just don't see how the adjustment you describe is possible.
If he can think and move that fast while moving that fast, he's not human, and he looks very human in all other respects. He has two legs and arms and everything.
You will no doubt claim this is so, but I will not believe you so, so let's save ourselves the trouble. |
He's not human. He does that almost every week to me at practice.
That low riser is a bread and butter shot of Dukes and Knights. I'm still trying to learn to do it half as good after four years. |
They have warp gates in their elbows...I swear, that is the only logical explanation...
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