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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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 Posted: Thu 19 Nov, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | David Teague wrote: |
While you are right in the fact that the video shown guards and strikes similar to a backsword system... that lack of footwork and staying in measure is just plain silly for a martial art. |
David, if you took some time to study SCA fighting rather then just outright dismissing you would not make it so easy for me to find counter examples to what you say. |
Of course I made it silly, something like 20 pages ago I said something along the line of "SCA/WMA, who cares as long as you're having fun. The fact of the matter, while the vid you linked is a training vid, IF it was single stick or Backsword vid there would be so many things wrong with it... but it's a SCA vid for developing power so it's fine for what you do.
Thank you, as a Highland Fencing instructor I have a very short attention span.
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | .20 - Two fencing retreats to maintain distance.
.24- A slope step and a zwerchhau.. |
Lucky for us my attention span was longer than the vid. The Duke hops on the first retreat (Bad Duke) but the second was
a style of retreat I teach (Good Duke).
I was waiting for that zwerchhau but never saw it, you must be taking about his flat cut aka: a Number 5 or Inside horizontal cut . Lucky for you I'm one of the really weird sword guys who studies both the German Longsword, Messer and The 18th Century Highland Broadsword.
Their aren't that many of us world wide that mix those schools of swordplay.
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | What is not obvious to the untrained eye is that mid swing Duke Gregor dropped his sword as to fake a leg shot. His opponent triggered off that and dropped his shield to block the leg. His opponent also brought his sword over to block his head in anticipation of a possible low-rising shot. What he did not anticipate was the slope step that changed the angle and allowed the shot to go in past the defense. All that happened in two seconds. |
Yep, even with my short attention span, I saw the feint and follow though. Why did his false time attack work so well? Because they stayed at measure. IF the Dukes opponent worked measure as is taught in Highland Broadsword he would have be able to respond to the Dukes feint correctly.
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | You can't just look at a video of two new SCA fighters and say the SCA does not use footwork, timing or distance any more then you can look at a video of two new WMA fighters as a general example. |
No, I was commenting on the training vid.
| David Teague wrote: | | I take it back, it does look like really crappy 18th Century Singlestick with no foot work. WTF?! |
See above.
| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | Then of course there is the other issue which you refereed to in HRG Prizefight WMAW 2007 with relation to timing, distancing and footwork. Its not so easy when you opponent is intentional trying to break those things down to defeat you. It does not matter how good you are with your footwork, unless you become the absolute best, there will always be someone better who can trip you up. |
Never said there wasn't.
Now, If you watch that vid I'm the guy in the kilt. The first bit looks like I'm the biggest "puss-in-boots" you ever saw... but no, I'm following the manual on how to fight if the duel is to the first cut. Strike or respond 3 times, spring off. Learn your opponent, then hit him.
I won my "prize" that night, but don't think that I never got hit. I did, but I gave more than I got to guys 10 to 30 years younger than me. :)
Everybody, please don't let my prior post make you think I don't respect the SCA, I do. I've fenced a fair share of the local folks over the last 14-15 years.
Cheers,
DT
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Matt Clarke
Location: Perth, Western Australia Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Thu 19 Nov, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Vincent,
| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | Hello Matt,
If you don't mind I have a question about your tip-first cutting mechanic as shown here (at least at the beginning, I'm afraid I haven't watched the whole 8min ;) ):
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Don't mind at all, that is why it is out there! I will say that that video is only exploring one way of cutting for a certain thread on the WMAC forums, and is not representation of all my cutting.
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I'd like to hear your thoughts about the relationship of this mechanic to matters of range and stepping. When you cut tip first from vom tag, your sword meets the target (i.e. is in long point) roughly halfway through your step. This means that your range is a bit shortened (you don't strike a whole step away from where you started), and also that you finish your step during the follow through/recovery. It's true that your sword is sooner in front of you, however don't you think that being exposed and advancing while recovering is also dangerous? Doesn't that leave you more vulnerable to counters after the cut (nachreisen I think it's called in German?)?
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You observations are correct on what is happening. However, I don't think this is a 'tip first' matter, but one of 'sword first'. You can move the sword first in a number of ways faster to the target than your feet land, which I think is the subject of your question.
On the distance thing- Yes, at times I am short, but I was starting slightly further out than was needed, and I was on soft sand which made acceleration hard. I think it is a matter of doing what you think is best at the time. If speed of sword to the target is needed, I think it is safe to leave your feet behind, assuming you can make that distance.
As to the being exposed thing, I'm not sure how that makes you more exposed than any other type of cut. Again a matter of over-commitment if you can't adjust for a threatening action the opponent makes. Something that is also in the realm of reflexes and athletic ability, not just technique.
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At other times you stop the sword at longpoint and finish the step, which I think is safer, but also less efficient for cutting. There the cut becomes almost like a transition to longpoint followed by a thrust, which is perfectly sound as well but not always what you want to do with a cutting weapon.
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Yes I agree that the half-cut is less effective. A pure tip-first half-cut is really only good to the head IMO. A more 'slashing' half cut can be effective in other areas. Depends what you are trying to achieve, I guess.
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It all boils down to hands being faster than feet in this instance: if you cut full-speed with your arms your advancing foot will be late, or at the very least the weight transfer will not be complete. So your tip first mechanic does:
1) launch foot and sword (roughly at the same time to the naked eye)
2) strike (foot is about half-way)
3) recover and finish the step
During phase 3 you are vulnerable, advancing and probably closer to the enemy. An alternative mechanic (that is used in kenjutsu) does:
1) launch foot
2) launch sword (foot is about half-way)
3) strike and finish the step at about the same time
4) recover without motions of foot or body
Of course this opens you up at the beginning but it covers more range (one full step at the instant of the strike), is safer at the end (your foot has finished so you are not closing in further, and you can even step back during recovery if need be), and has arguably more power, or at least is less tiring for the same power.
I honestly think both mechanics should be used, depending on the situation. But the second one is I believe unfairly dismissed in HEMA right now... Perhaps because the first one is not completely intuitive and thus seems more "advanced"...
Regards, |
Yes, I agree on both being useful.
Regards,
Matt
http://laches.wordpress.com
http://fechtkunst.wordpress.com
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Matt Clarke
Location: Perth, Western Australia Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Thu 19 Nov, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | To fence (fight) with only your arms is an absence of power. The text is clearly advising against that. |
I don't think anyone here is saying to use only your arms!
Regards,
Matt
http://laches.wordpress.com
http://fechtkunst.wordpress.com
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | Anders Nilsson wrote: | | Bill Tsafa wrote: |
Thanks Michael. Those are the texts are the ones I had in mind. When I hear "use the entire strength of your body" and "always fence using all your strength" that is a pretty open and shut case to me. That is seems to say flat out use your legs to power the strikes. |
To fence is not to just to strike. The old meaning of the word fencing is the same as fighting.
It means to fight with all your strenght.
And strenght is also not just power. It´s strenght of technic as well.
So it roughly means "To fight with everything that you are good at. (Power, skill, timing etc)". |
Hi Anders,
That's one take on it, but not one I agree with.
Here, he is more specific:
| Quote: | | Note, this means that when you come to him in the Zufechten, use the entire strength of your body for what-ever you intend to execute, and strike while approaching to his head or body and keep your point before his face or chest. This way he cannot change through before your point. |
He is saying that when you approach him and strike, use the entire strength of your body. Not the strength of your entire body, the entire strength of your body. The sequence is important here.
I honestly have no idea why people are so opposed this this concept, assuming you are, can you explain? |
Well as I see it it´s a matter of translation.
In both old German and old Swedish (Sweden spoke much german until late 1700 so it´s quite similar)the word fence is the same as fight. For example in the stories of the clashes between Sweden and Russia in the great nordic war, the Swedish croniclers says that there was hard fencing. And as we all know, armies in 1700 didn´t fence, but fight, with cannon, musket and the lot.
The word strenght is not only a word to describe physical strenght, but strenght in general. Something that a person is good at. It´s used in the same way today. Ask a fighter in you club what his strenght is and you will get several different answers.
I would personally says that my strenght is my schnitts to the lower arms and my work from the bind.
One more thing that in my mind talks agains the use of power is the talk of the püffel. In the German tradition we are clearly warned againt being a püffel. All meisterhauen is designed to use skill to defeat overcommitted power.
That tells me that skill is something to desire more than power.
In the sentece above we also see that he clearly tells us to keep our point towards the oponents face or chest. In my mind that also tells us to cut with skill, not with power. Becasue if one cuts with to much power and the oponents steps back, the point will miss and be off line. I shall not cut harder than I can stop my point pointing in my oponents face or chest.
I also think (Very personal note) that the sentece talks more about intent that power.
So, my interpretation of the sentence above would (Roughly) be:
When in Zufechten, use your strenght, (What you are best at) and full intent,and strike towards his head or body with a closing step (Or something else that brings you closer to the oponent). If you miss you should stop your cut with the point towards your oponents face or chest.
But, that´s my interpretation of it, and the one we use. If a fighters strenght is power, then he should use it.
And as always in this, all we can get is interpretations.
Anders "Nelle" Nilsson, Instructor Angermanna Mnhfs
To train martial arts without fighting is like slalom without snow.
Last edited by Anders Nilsson on Fri 20 Nov, 2009 2:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: |
Everybody, please don't let my prior post make you think I don't respect the SCA, I do.
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Thank you David. That is all that is asked for and is appreciated.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Matt Clarke wrote: | | As to the being exposed thing, I'm not sure how that makes you more exposed than any other type of cut. Again a matter of over-commitment if you can't adjust for a threatening action the opponent makes. Something that is also in the realm of reflexes and athletic ability, not just technique. |
I think that a real damaging cut will always have to travel past longpoint, in fact. Even without overcommitment. So my observation was based on the full cuts you show, though the follow through was perhaps a bit extreme in these. The fact that you advance during the recovery phase is in my opinion a vulnerability, because the sword does not really protect you anymore (it goes away from the line), and you are advancing towards the adversary. If he voided, there is a problem...
It's exactly the same situation as if you started from longpoint, and cocked the weapon back while beginning to step. I mean it's the same kind of motion, only with your sword-first cuts it happens after the cut, not before. It's not telegraphing, but it gives the same sort of opportunity to the adversary, a time when you advance while opening up. Perhaps even bigger as you are closer to him after the impact than before, and stopping the step short is not easy once you get past half of the step...
If your cut lands as your step ends, you still open up afterwards, but at least you don't close distance, and you even have the option of going back if you need to, because your forward foot has landed and you can push on it.
Of course you can offset that with superior reflexes or athletic ability, but the same could be said about any technical shortcoming for any way to cut. I'm sure there are plenty of people that could strike me with the worst techniques because I have very bad reflexes :)
I agree that the problems I point out happen with sword-first cuts too, not just tip-first. It's just that tip-first makes them stand out all the more; when you cut hilt-first for example the sword takes some time to catch up, a time you can use to finish the step, and the striking blade protects you then. This mitigates the problem but is often seen as telegraphing. Basically most of the people I see using non-telegraphing strikes strive for a tip-first cut.
Regards,
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Matt Clarke
Location: Perth, Western Australia Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: |
I think that a real damaging cut will always have to travel past longpoint, in fact. Even without overcommitment. So my observation was based on the full cuts you show, though the follow through was perhaps a bit extreme in these. The fact that you advance during the recovery phase is in my opinion a vulnerability, because the sword does not really protect you anymore (it goes away from the line), and you are advancing towards the adversary. If he voided, there is a problem...
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Ah yes, I understand now. Yes it could be a problem.
My follow through is extreme, I agree, but I was trying to go to a wechselhut as Meyer does.
Regards,
Matt
http://laches.wordpress.com
http://fechtkunst.wordpress.com
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Steven H
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Bill-
You have several times now described SCA shots as a Zwerch. But every one you've shown is long edge from the right. Given the textual descriptions of zwerchau, how can you call these shots a zwerch?
I'm not saying it didn't work. But it's a mittelhau - not a zwerch. Meyer's dussack material includes a variety of mittelhau some of which are similar to some SCA strikes.
The only zwerch I've ever seen from a SCAdian was in one of Duke Gaston Veiuxchamps Res Ducis videos. He shows a short edge mittelhau from the right and he calls it a retik(sp?). He describes them being used for exactly the kind of thing I've seen you recommend for a zwerch. But he says the shot wasn't used any more because if you miss it hurts your wrist (which sounds to me like a combination of overcommitment and not having Meyer's Running Off mechanics).
Cheers,
Steven
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Hi Steve- Zwerch with the short edge is usually only done at close range with the single handed sword in the SCA. At a distance the long edge gives a better extension. I always figured the reason for the names of Long and Short is because of the range advantages each side provides.
I am not 100% sure on this but don't some WMA people also do the Zwerchhue with the long edge? I thought I had read some interpretations that use the Zwerch in that manor. I am looking forward to hearing some feedback on this from other WMA people.
I have always regarded the key distinction of a Zwech being that it is done with the hilt high and horizontal, not which side of the blade is used. Zwerch to the left side is always done with the long edge so there is no issue there.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Adam S. wrote: | | No one is saying that actual fencing tech wasn't present. |
Actually I got the impression some were saying exactly that. That no fencers were invloved in the process of making the base for SCA fighting. I could be wrong, maybe it's that language barrier thing again. ;)
| Quote: |
It's just that, traditionally speaking, SCA combat comes from a very diverse background of people doing Escrima/Kali/Anris stickwork, Olympic fencing, Kendo, ect. |
Yes, I know of course. And everyone add their flavor to it. They add that to WMA too I've noticed. Just like any person with previous experience will flavor some of his or her later fighting styles when doing other things. Like a TDK practitioner learning Aikido, or say a wrestler learning MMA, some flavor will spill over and handled right it can be a good thing too.
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Do all of these things work? In there own way and when applied correctly, yes.
Does that mean that SCA combat is based in historical tech? The answer to that is, It depends. |
Yes, certainly it depends. Some are and some aren't. And some can easily be adapted to be more so.
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You can't make a blanket statement saying that ALL SCA combat is based on historical precedence. |
Actualluy, nitpicking perhaps but I wasn't actually saying that. I was referring to the base system that was then built upon, with the patchwork.
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I've known too many fighters that use a standard of SCA shots that have no historical counterpart that I know of. |
That "you know of" part is perhaps the most critical detail here. Many of the techniques that are getting accused of being ahistoric turn out to not be if you look at say, Highland broadsword. Some others seem to be the only way to damage a sword in ways we see that some are, like indentations from helmets on the back forte seems to go well with the tight wrap we do. But yes, there are techniques I also think are purely modern. I never ever said there wasn't.
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I see it the same way you can look at MMA tournaments like UFC vs a traditional martial art like Shotokan Karate.
Is the upper tier MMA fighter good? Yes.
Is UFC a sport venue? Yes.
Being a part of a sport doesn't mean that you're not a good fighter. It means that you participate in a sport. |
MMA = Mixed martial art. Again, that art name use for a sport?
Perhaps as I said Martial Art is not as easily defined or as elitist and precise as some here think. To me a true martial artist sees two things, recognition of effectiveness of technique as well as martial prowess in another practitioner regardless of style, nationality, affiliation or philosophy. The way I see it a martial art is not in how in it's trained, not the specific road you walk, but the result in fighting prowess as well as the self fulfillment it produces. As in be all you can be. MMA is a great example of that, so I think it deserves to be called art as well as sport. Can't it be both?
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Fri 20 Nov, 2009 9:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: |
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I nominated this topic as a "Spotlight Topic". All you have to do is click on the link at the top of the page.
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Adam S. wrote: | No one is saying that actual fencing tech wasn't present. It's just that, traditionally speaking, SCA combat comes from a very diverse background of people doing Escrima/Kali/Anris stickwork, Olympic fencing, Kendo, ect.
Do all of these things work? In there own way and when applied correctly, yes.
Does that mean that SCA combat is based in historical tech? The answer to that is, It depends.
You can't make a blanket statement saying that ALL SCA combat is based on historical precedence.
I've known too many fighters that use a standard of SCA shots that have no historical counterpart that I know of.
I see it the same way you can look at MMA tournaments like UFC vs a traditional martial art like Shotokan Karate.
Is the upper tier MMA fighter good? Yes.
Is UFC a sport venue? Yes.
Being a part of a sport doesn't mean that you're not a good fighter. It means that you participate in a sport. |
I'm just highlighting Adam's post. :)
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | I'm just highlighting Adam's post. :) |
It was a good post so why not? I wasn't trashing it just replying to the points raised.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Hello Bill,
Well, since it's been declared that SCA sword and shield is based off of Highland Broadsword stop calling it a Zwerchhau. It's a "Inside horizontal cut".( Which is the mittelhau in the common German fencing terminology.)
A "Zwerchhau" is only performed with a 2 handed weapon in the German system with a thumb grip.
Arming sword and messer have related specialty strikes to the longsword system's master strikes but require minor to major bio-mechanical changes to execute with a one handed sword. The other issue is they don't call the cross strike a "Zwerchhau". Each system has it's own terminology. Since I have yet to study arming sword I can't tell what that strike is called in that weapon's system, I can tell you with the messer it's called the "Entrüsthau".
Arming sword and messer both use the short edge from the strong side and the strike comes from low guard with power coming from (gasp!) the hips and elbow (along with footwork and other body movement).I have yet to see anybody doing those combined body mechanics to achieve a short edge strike to the opponent's left side in a SCA vid. (Yes Virgina, not only is there a Santa Claus, but the "Zwerchhau" is delivered with a short edge strike using a thumb grip from the users strong side).
Now everything I've listed comes from the study of the 14th and 15th century German Masters. While I do have Meyer, I don't work from it. If Meyer, Sutor or Mair have a long edge "Zwerchhau" it would be later period than the works I study (and used with a training weapon for only sport).
So Bill, I "like" how you were able to read my prior post and only take this fact away from it. "Everybody, please don't let my prior post make you think I don't respect the SCA, I do." I've only said variations upon that same theme in this thread 20 or more pages back.
I know you have a bit of German Longsword so you like to use it's terminology with your SCA movements. Problem is, it doesn't fit most of the time. Add in the fact that the basic SCA sword and shield does seen to use "distorted" guards from saber/broadsword/ backsword systems, maybe that would be the terminology to learn and use when describing movements, actions, and attacks.
Cheers,
DT
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Bill Tsafa
Location: Brooklyn, NY Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 599
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: | Hello Bill,
A "Zwerchhau" is only performed with a 2 handed weapon in the German system with a thumb grip.
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I don't have my books with me... what is a high horizontal strike called in I.33 with sword and buckler?
No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Fri 20 Nov, 2009 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Anders Nilsson wrote: |
| Quote: | | Note, this means that when you come to him in the Zufechten, use the entire strength of your body for what-ever you intend to execute, and strike while approaching to his head or body and keep your point before his face or chest. This way he cannot change through before your point. |
Well as I see it it´s a matter of translation.
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Hi Anders,
You raise good points, but it seems that they are only applicable to the passage that translates "always fence with all of your strength" from Ringeck.
The Von Danzig passage, quoted above, does not seem to make sense if you interpret strength to mean something you're good at. Something you're good at of your body?
| Quote: | One more thing that in my mind talks agains the use of power is the talk of the püffel. In the German tradition we are clearly warned againt being a püffel. All meisterhauen is designed to use skill to defeat overcommitted power.
That tells me that skill is something to desire more than power. |
So it seems that primarily, your objection is based on overcommitment, which you define as cutting past Langenort?
I have two things to say to that...first is that a good fencer should be able to strike with all of his power into langenort, or beyond, as he wishes. Control is very important. I come from a JSA background, where such control was heavily stressed. Should we strive for less in WMA?
Second, there are several examples of full cuts in the system that end in nebenhut or wechselhut. We are told to always leave the point menacing the face or chest, but we are also told to hold only four guards, right before we are given more to hold, one of which is said to be the most noble (langenort), but not of the original four. "Always" didn't seem to mean always back then. :)
So if your primary objection is based on overcommitment, and I put forth that overcommitment that one should be able to strike with full power without overcommitting, whether to langenort or or a lower ward, then do you still object?
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: |
A "Zwerchhau" is only performed with a 2 handed weapon in the German system with a thumb grip.
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There are single handed zwerchaus in the system, David. A simple example is the fourth technique of Lignitzer's sword and buckler. There are also zwerchaus in messer.
Whether you use the thumb on the blade with these single hand zwerchs is a matter of interpretation. I use it.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Tsafa wrote: | | David Teague wrote: | Hello Bill,
A "Zwerchhau" is only performed with a 2 handed weapon in the German system with a thumb grip.
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I don't have my books with me... what is a high horizontal strike called in 1.33 with sword and buckler? |
I don't do I.33 as a main area of study nor do I have Jeffery's book, but the 3 different times I've taken major track classes in the system I don't remember ever seeing a short edge cross strike.
Later 14th and 15th German sword and buckler have that move, but once again if done with a messer and buckler it's called a "Entrüsthau".
Bill Grandy can tell us what it's called with an arming sword (I think). Bill?
Now, quit trying to change the subject:
Here is the first lesson on 18th century terms,
True edge, False edge, inside, outside, hanging guard, middle guard, inside guard, outside guard, St George, half hanger, spadroon guard, slip, stop, swoop, lurch, medium, cut 1, cut 2, cut 3, cut 4, cut 5, cut 6, cut 7 ,cut 8.
There, that's a nice start. :)
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | | David Teague wrote: |
A "Zwerchhau" is only performed with a 2 handed weapon in the German system with a thumb grip.
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There are single handed zwerchaus in the system, David. A simple example is the fourth technique of Lignitzer's sword and buckler. There are also zwerchaus in messer.
Whether you use the thumb on the blade with these single hand zwerchs is a matter of interpretation. I use it. |
Please reread my post. I think you missed something major.
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 20 Nov, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| David Teague wrote: | | Michael Edelson wrote: | | David Teague wrote: |
A "Zwerchhau" is only performed with a 2 handed weapon in the German system with a thumb grip.
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There are single handed zwerchaus in the system, David. A simple example is the fourth technique of Lignitzer's sword and buckler. There are also zwerchaus in messer.
Whether you use the thumb on the blade with these single hand zwerchs is a matter of interpretation. I use it. |
Please reread my post. I think you missed something major. |
Ah, I see, caught the messer bit this time.
However, there is a single handed zwerchhau, called zwerchhau, in Lignitzer's sword and buckler.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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