myArmoury.com - pikeman showdown experiement hellenistic vs renaissance

Posts: 392 Location: Germany

Thu 23 Feb, 2023 9:44 pm

Graham Shearlaw wrote:

Sean Manning wrote:

Wargamers and military theorists tend to be much more sure that small differences in low-tech kit can give a huge advantage than the people who actually fought battles with edged weapons.

Because if we admit that battles are often won by the side that last had hot meal an warm bed, people tune out.
After all most there's a million wargames games about the WW2 Battle of France but do any cover the The Red Ball Express?

They tend to invent differences as a well, if we put a Late Roman ridge helmet next to a 1600's lobster-tailed pot, what the real difference?
Both have a two part bowl, neck, cheek and nose guards.
So what can you use to stat up your war game? make the 1600's lobster-tailed pot better as there's often more of a brow visor? or argue it based on the nose guard often being three bars?

Well, the ridge helm was used around 300 AD and the Lobster-tailed pot helm, 1,300 years later. I think most people assume that there would be more advancement in metallurgy in that time. I guess though that iron is iron and steel is steel, even if the quality varies, there is a limit to how much difference to how much better good steel can be than bad steel. Maybe, most of the advancements were in improved production as opposed to quality. I know that with regard to testing armour and helmets, a big deal is made about the difference between costume armour and authentic replicas. Is that mostly to do with thickness?

I think it is important to remember this quote that I read on a blog: “The effect size of everything is small”. There are exceptions, of course, such as firearms.

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William P

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Posts: 1,525 Location: Sydney, Australia

Fri 24 Feb, 2023 4:18 pm

Ryan S. wrote:

Graham Shearlaw wrote:

Sean Manning wrote:

Wargamers and military theorists tend to be much more sure that small differences in low-tech kit can give a huge advantage than the people who actually fought battles with edged weapons.

Because if we admit that battles are often won by the side that last had hot meal an warm bed, people tune out.
After all most there's a million wargames games about the WW2 Battle of France but do any cover the The Red Ball Express?

They tend to invent differences as a well, if we put a Late Roman ridge helmet next to a 1600's lobster-tailed pot, what the real difference?
Both have a two part bowl, neck, cheek and nose guards.
So what can you use to stat up your war game? make the 1600's lobster-tailed pot better as there's often more of a brow visor? or argue it based on the nose guard often being three bars?

Well, the ridge helm was used around 300 AD and the Lobster-tailed pot helm, 1,300 years later. I think most people assume that there would be more advancement in metallurgy in that time. I guess though that iron is iron and steel is steel, even if the quality varies, there is a limit to how much difference to how much better good steel can be than bad steel. Maybe, most of the advancements were in improved production as opposed to quality. I know that with regard to testing armour and helmets, a big deal is made about the difference between costume armour and authentic replicas. Is that mostly to do with thickness?

I think it is important to remember this quote that I read on a blog: “The effect size of everything is small”. There are exceptions, of course, such as firearms.

in the modern day, especially the 20th century, technology is almost moving exponentially compared to the previous century to the point where the people in 1900 would be flattened into oblivion by a army of 1990

id say that exponential climb started sometime during the 19th century

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John Dunn

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Posts: 250 Location: Frankfort, KY

Mon 06 Mar, 2023 3:17 am

Pikemen

Another factor would be involved is leadership, motivation and combat experience.

If it is Macedonian Pike men from the End of Alexander's reign to the early successors these men were some of the most combat experienced men the world has ever known. Especially the Silver Shields and this would give them an advantage over most medieval pikemen. Even ones that had been in some combat in the middle ages.

The Leadership of the Macedonians during this same time period was outstanding as well and would make an impact in any battle. I believe their leadership to be superior to most medieval armies of the later middle ages.

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William P

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Posts: 1,525 Location: Sydney, Australia

Thu 09 Mar, 2023 10:36 pm

Re: Pikemen

John Dunn wrote:

Another factor would be involved is leadership, motivation and combat experience.

If it is Macedonian Pike men from the End of Alexander's reign to the early successors these men were some of the most combat experienced men the world has ever known. Especially the Silver Shields and this would give them an advantage over most medieval pikemen. Even ones that had been in some combat in the middle ages.

The Leadership of the Macedonians during this same time period was outstanding as well and would make an impact in any battle. I believe their leadership to be superior to most medieval armies of the later middle ages.

this is precisely why im looking at a relatively even level of skill and training and leadership... theyre decently competant and skilled at what they can do...

its now just a matter to see how much of a difference levels of technology will lead to victory/ not be a significant factor

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