hi there,

my old walloon hilt sword, despite being in excellent form for its age, has a small amount of movement within the quillon block (?) where the tang enters into the hilt. anyone know how i can tighten this?
one obvious way i've thought of would be to hammer something down into the small gap between tang and block, but then this would be difficult to remove and i don't want to be haphazardly adding bits of scrap metal to this elegant old piece.

any suggestions appreciated,

cheers, adam

Adam,
Yes, please do not hammer bits of scrap metal into your walloon! Some of my antiques do not have perfectly tight hilts, and I prefer to leave them as they are. I suppose it's all about personal preference. E.B. Erickson or Bill Goodwin might be able to offer some advice, as would some of the other people that frequent the Antique & Military Sword subforum of www.swordforum.com (SFI).

Jonathan

PS--Do you have any photos you could share?

I'd echo what Jonathan said. Personally, I don't think I'd want to add anything to hilt. Having said that, if your mind is dead-set on it, I'd suggest something much softer than metal. Perhaps a vegetable-tanned leather shim in there would do the trick. Ensure you use vegetable-tanned (oak-tanned) and no other kind, so as not to create a chance of corrosion caused by other tanned leathers. I've seen many antique hilts that have been shimmed in this fashion, but at the end of the day, they are often not done very elegantly. I think many such "restorations" do not improved the end product, unfortunately.

thanks for the advice guys,

i had wondered if there was another way of tightening the hilt other than stuffing bits of material into the gap between hilt and tang. as it sounds like this is the only way to achieve this, i think i will leave it as is - as you guys say, its probably not worth it. the only reason i wanted to do this is because i use the sword to train with - if it was simply a wallhanger then this wouldn't be an issue. That said however, the movement really is minimal and, unless there is some other way to tighten it then shoving bits of whatever into the quillon block, i think i'll leave it be.

thanks again for your sugestions, adam

Dental floss or heavy thread works for me. If you have a gap you can wind it into, it works quite well.


Cheers

GC

Arrrghhhhggg!!!

Don't hammer anything into the gap!

I've just finished tightening the quillons on my reproduction hand and a half sword so I can give you advice from someone who's been there. First you need to establish if the movement is up and down (ie tilting towards the pommel and the tip) or back and forwards (ie side to side).

If the movement is up and down, and you can see the end of the tang at the base of the blade, you need to peen the end of the tang over the pommel more.

If the movement is the other way (or both ways as it was with my case) it may be more difficult, either way I would show it to a blacksmith first. I did mine under a blacksmith's supervision.

I had the same kind of problem on my milanese rapier (the quillon were not perfectly flushed to the handle, allowing them to pivot around the quillon block). Adding a piece of felt between the quillon block and the grip settled it perfectly.

Plus, it gives a touch of color to the sword :)

What I wonder is how it was done in the past? There must have been grips loosening back in the days too. Maybe the hilt was remade from scratch in this case... but I guess that more "ad-hoc", less costly solutions were used as well.

Regards

What I wonder is how it was done in the past? There must have been grips loosening back in the days too. Maybe the hilt was remade from scratch in this case... but I guess that more "ad-hoc", less costly solutions were used as well.


that's what i would've thought, i mean the hilts are good and there must have been a way to fix this simple problem. Its probably that which has already been suggested. :)

You're ready for a high quality reproduction English basket hilt sword (fortunate man!).

Paging E.B. Erickson....

I'm not sure this is exactly what you're looking for, but take a look at the "how to tighten a loose hilt" article on Bjorn Hellqvist's website - http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/swords.htm

Interesting. We tend to look to our own experiences first and then to those we witness and finally look to experts for answers when we can’t agree. Your experience with “veg leathers” contradicts mine (15 years in the allied leather trades, 28 in medieval re-enactment/ martial arts) but on further reflection, I believe we are both correct and yet mistaken.

One of the tiresome aspects of the leather industry is jargon. Every trade has terminology to qualify product characteristics. Saddlers have several terms for vegetable tanned leather depending on its stage of dressing and finishing. Russet, harness, dressed, combination/retan, waxed; all are veg tanned in some way. Shoe people use terms like split, crust, upper, lining, aniline, pull-up, suede and nubuck. Most are chrome tanned leathers, but not all. Glovers, garment makers and bookbinders have their own lingo, which is even more convoluted to the uninitiated. (This list covers many leather trade terms; http://www.iultcs.org/leather_terms/index.asp)

What does this have to do with your question? Simple. Your concept of “vegetable tanned” might include any of the 3-5% of leathers not chrome tanned. Even the cheapest veg leather tends to perform better than inexpensive chrome tanned. In the blade world, “vegetable tanned” is sufficient to imply “quality leather.” The culprit here isn’t particularly the tannage but the moisture wicked in by undressed leather, veg or chrome. Moisture leaches tannins from veg or salts from chrome, creating different problems of fibre stability. Many blade makers advocate avoiding moisture in the sheath, especially this fellow who makes waterproof, wax hardened sheaths. http://www.homestead.com/beknivessite2/pouchsheath.html . Some chrome is dressed with acidic oils, as is "latigo" designed for shoe laces. (really its a chrome retan.) That can create a problem for carbon steels, too. A chamois/oil tanned leather called “buff” is traditionally used for straps and articulation in armour conservation. Museums would not use it if it were a threat to iron and steel artefacts.

I should have specified “russet veg” in my earlier statement. That is the easiest “veg” to buy at the craft level. It is undyed, undressed leather for carving, tooling et cetera. As I sell a great deal of it for crafts, I am familiar with many of its uses. Harness leathers tend to have some degree of both dye and dressing applied. This is the leather of choice for belt and sheath makers. It has a number of uses in horse tack and also for biker saddlebags. Harness leather is more expensive and difficult to purchase in small pieces except for offcut scrap from saddlers. I quickly sell as much offcut as I can obtain from them. This “veg” is ideal for sheaths and perhaps for the wedge you recommended.

As to the chemical reaction between vegetable tannins and ferrous metals, you might read just the “source” here: King's American Dispensatory, 1898: Acidum Tannicum (U. S. P.)—Tannic Acid. http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/kings/acidum-tann.html
I have technical books on historic tanning and leatherwork but they don’t have a clearer explanation of the creation of iron tannate than this online example. Its just a bad thing in the tanning industry and carefully avoided. Iron tannate is the “black” in historic dyes and inks. I’ve heard issues with iron tannate pop up in antique gun conservation as well. The fact that you haven’t experienced it leads me to conclude that:
1 Your leather articles are well made, constructed from good dressed leather and
2 You oil then conserve your steel articles in a moderately dry environment.

I hope this clarified my original statement to your satisfaction. I blew my lunch break to write this but I could go on for days about leather I suppose. We wouldn't want that now, would we? ;-)

Have a lovely weekend,

Kel Rekuta
Capital Findings & Leather
Wholesalers to the Shoe and Allied Leather Trades
Toronto, Canada

Thank you, Kel. That's great information. I've just recently started doing leatherwork again after a long hiatus. I've missed it.

I was on the phone yesterday talking with a friend about this and mentioned that I suspect the problems are with terminology. s you mention, it's a kettle of worms and often trade-specific.Your conclusions about my own usage are dead-on: I do use high-quality, well-dressed leather and I also live in a stable (if not really dry, per se) climate. It's such a stable climate here in San Francisco, in fact, taht I don't really even oil the items.

Thanks for the link, as well. I've bookmarked it and will read it.

Sean Flynt wrote:

Quote:

My recommendation would be to leave the hilt alone and get a modern training tool. Given the use to which the weapon is being put, the original question strikes me as being sort of like, "What's the best way to protect my wedding ring when using it as a faucet washer?".

Unfortunately i fail to understand what you mean by the above remark. My original question was "How can I tighten a loose hilt" - how this is analogous to protecting a wedding ring which I am using as a faucet washer i really don't know. :wtf:

you seem to be making an assumption as to how i am using my sword and also that this use is entirely innapropriate - like maybe you imagine that i use it to chop firewood with or, indeed, as a plumbing tool. i don't believe i said anything to indicate such innapropriate use, and if using a real sword for careful training is analogous to using a wedding ring as a faucet washer, well then i quess i know even less about martial arts then i do about plumbing. ;)

you guys recommend that i leave this one be and do my training with a modern reproduction. first, let me assure you that my antique piece is a most excellent piece to use (has a perfectly solid tang) and has taught me alot about how to use it, handling and rotations etc which i am sure would have been different with a replica. I am of course always careful not to risk any damage etc to my blade and use it only on appropriate materials, i do not use it to train with a partner obviously, it is far to dangerous for that. Also, conservation is, in fact, a priority and is not compromised in any way by my use of the piece. So - why on earth would i want to practice with an inferior tool? :D



cheers, adam