The ones I mean weren’t falchions and they weren’t messer. Let me be a bit pedantic while I describe what I don’t mean…
Albion’s upcoming line has an example: the Knecht kriegmesser has a simple hand-and-a-half length scale-on-tang hilt, a simple crossguard, and either (I can’t tell from the drawing) a (simple, of course) shell or ring side-guard, which from period artwork seems to characterise the type from small to large. The peasant men in several of Breughel’s wonderful "historical snapshot" paintings often have these “Big Flemish ur-Bowies with side-rings" hanging from their belts, worn as such a commonplace that the artist gives them no more emphasis than hats or shoes..
Cold Steel have one in their line, ArmArt made a custom version with a more elaborate grip than usual (and an unrealistic amount of curve) and Lutel’s has a more realistic blade but a bastard-sword’s waisted hilt and writhen pommel. (Thanks to Nathan for having photos of the last three so easily available!)
What I’m referring to is the true Schnepfe (“Snipe”; because its blade curve resembled that bird’s beak) – the hand-and-a-half sabre with a far-from-simple half-basket guard; one of which can be seen here as made by JT Pälikkö of Finland, and based quite a lot on the Wallace Collection's A489 (p.148 in Edge & Paddock’s Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight.)
It seems impossible to me that there wasn’t a specific style of fighting for this weapon: double-edged for only that part of the blade which had a false edge running 10-12 inches back from the point, the rest with a blunt back allowing much more positive off-hand pressure than half-swording a double-edged longsword even with a gauntlet, a (slight) curve which must have prompted more frequent use of draw-cuts than a straight blade, and an elaborate guard echoing those on straight double- and back-bladed swords from the same area of Europe.
While gross/krieg/hieb-messer play must have been quite similar in basic respects to that of the South German/Swiss sabre, there must have been something about the use of the more elaborate weapon to justify the fitting of guards more complex than a single side-ring. Unless, of course, it was something as simple as conspicuous consumption: a wealthy merchant-adventurer (from the Hansa trading ports, maybe, though both geography and period are a bit off) spending a lot of money on sword-furniture for a blade not much different to that carried by the average well-off burgher, just because he could…
Does anyone know if there were fechtbuchen, or chapters in same, dealing with these weapons? I’ve come up blank, and any advice, links or pointers would be much appreciated.
Is this what you mean?
scroll down in the article.
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/heymr.htm
Martin
scroll down in the article.
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/heymr.htm
Martin
:wtf: Don't you hate it when the power flickers and you lose a carefully-crafted reply before it's posted...?
Martin - sorry but no, the article doesn't help much. The sabre shown is interesting since it's halfway between the simple cross-guard of a gross/kriegsmesser and the very elaborate swept-hilt half-basket of a Schweizersäbel, but the original question (probably lost in my long, wordy introduction) was regarding the weapon's use.
"Are there fechtbuchen or sections of them which deal with using the complex-hilted hand-and-a-half sabre?"
There's plenty of material about one-handed stuff, dussack, falchion and messer. One could make a case that the cross-hilted kriegsmesser, being only slightly curved, could be used like the straight-bladed longsword for half-swording, cross- and pommel-strikes. But the Schweizersäbel intrigues me, because its elaborate guards would seem to rule out any reversed-sword use: so how was it used? Like a katana? - which if true would make me laugh for several personal and professional reasons!
Period illustrations are rare (and in the case of the Schweizersäbel, apparently non-existent); in the fifty-odd likely sources on my own bookshelf I could find only two(!) examples of kriegsmesser drawn at the time they were used. One, dated 1516, is from The Secret History of the Sword (Amberger 1998 - p.ix) and shows two Landsknechte fighting; even then, only one uses a curved blade, the other carries a "standard" longsword. The second picture, dated 1530, is from Landsknecht Soldier 1486-1560 (Richards 2002 - p.46) and simply shows a kriegsmesser worn by a soldier on the march.
I rapidly gave up on finding anything useful through Google; some of the information refers to multiple repeats of the same Wiki article, others refer straight back here or to other forum sites, but 99.9% involved Fantasy Role-Playing, and give the impression that a Schweizersäbel isn't known to be a real weapon, but is just "a cool foreign word".
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Photographed in Basel Historisches Museum, Switzerland. Later than being discussed, with a less impressive guard, but a handsome piece..
Martin - sorry but no, the article doesn't help much. The sabre shown is interesting since it's halfway between the simple cross-guard of a gross/kriegsmesser and the very elaborate swept-hilt half-basket of a Schweizersäbel, but the original question (probably lost in my long, wordy introduction) was regarding the weapon's use.
"Are there fechtbuchen or sections of them which deal with using the complex-hilted hand-and-a-half sabre?"
There's plenty of material about one-handed stuff, dussack, falchion and messer. One could make a case that the cross-hilted kriegsmesser, being only slightly curved, could be used like the straight-bladed longsword for half-swording, cross- and pommel-strikes. But the Schweizersäbel intrigues me, because its elaborate guards would seem to rule out any reversed-sword use: so how was it used? Like a katana? - which if true would make me laugh for several personal and professional reasons!
Period illustrations are rare (and in the case of the Schweizersäbel, apparently non-existent); in the fifty-odd likely sources on my own bookshelf I could find only two(!) examples of kriegsmesser drawn at the time they were used. One, dated 1516, is from The Secret History of the Sword (Amberger 1998 - p.ix) and shows two Landsknechte fighting; even then, only one uses a curved blade, the other carries a "standard" longsword. The second picture, dated 1530, is from Landsknecht Soldier 1486-1560 (Richards 2002 - p.46) and simply shows a kriegsmesser worn by a soldier on the march.
I rapidly gave up on finding anything useful through Google; some of the information refers to multiple repeats of the same Wiki article, others refer straight back here or to other forum sites, but 99.9% involved Fantasy Role-Playing, and give the impression that a Schweizersäbel isn't known to be a real weapon, but is just "a cool foreign word".
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Photographed in Basel Historisches Museum, Switzerland. Later than being discussed, with a less impressive guard, but a handsome piece..
Peter-
This photo may help to get your point across. There are more photos of this type of sword in the myArmoury albums.
-Tim
This photo may help to get your point across. There are more photos of this type of sword in the myArmoury albums.
-Tim
Peter, unfortunately I have no input on this topic but would like to say I'm hoping that it grows into something, as I also have the same questions you're posing. These types of swords are greatly interesting to me and, like you, I've been unable to find any substantial information on the subject of their use.
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ]
I gave myself a quick :slaphead: for forgetting the convenient presence of the myArmoury photo albums; I'd overlooked them partly because I'd been concentrating on trying to find period illustrations of grossmesser and especially Schweizersäbel in use, rather than more contemporary photographs of real weapons.
Nathan - from the comments on this one I see that Erik at Phoenix was being considered as a source for a reproduction; of course he's since stopped doing custom work, and unfortunately due to Real Life concerns and his own health, he's even contacted me about returning my deposit for that Type 2b rapier-blade schiavona I had on order. :cry: Oh well, that's life. I'm probably not alone in feeling sad that such a talent has had to leave the field, especially since I was this close to owning an example of his work. I'd love to have seen what he could have done with one of these sabres...
Of course as I mentioned in my initial post on this thread, there's always this sort of quality from JT Pälikkö of Finland; I'll be able to afford something like this in the new year (I hope he's a custom smith who doesn't object to repeating himself) - and I still need to find out how to use it once I've got it! :D
In the meanwhile, here are those two illustrations; not Schweizersäbel unfortunately, but interesting nonetheless.
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From "The Secret History of the Sword" by J. Christoph Amberger; original source unknown.
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From "Landsknecht Soldier 1486-1560'" by John Richards; Eli Tanner collection.
Nathan - from the comments on this one I see that Erik at Phoenix was being considered as a source for a reproduction; of course he's since stopped doing custom work, and unfortunately due to Real Life concerns and his own health, he's even contacted me about returning my deposit for that Type 2b rapier-blade schiavona I had on order. :cry: Oh well, that's life. I'm probably not alone in feeling sad that such a talent has had to leave the field, especially since I was this close to owning an example of his work. I'd love to have seen what he could have done with one of these sabres...
Of course as I mentioned in my initial post on this thread, there's always this sort of quality from JT Pälikkö of Finland; I'll be able to afford something like this in the new year (I hope he's a custom smith who doesn't object to repeating himself) - and I still need to find out how to use it once I've got it! :D
In the meanwhile, here are those two illustrations; not Schweizersäbel unfortunately, but interesting nonetheless.
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From "The Secret History of the Sword" by J. Christoph Amberger; original source unknown.
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From "Landsknecht Soldier 1486-1560'" by John Richards; Eli Tanner collection.
Since we're talking about reproductions now, here is one from Patrick Bárta at TEMPL Historic Arms:
[ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ]
Click photos for full-sized versions
And one that Lutel created:
[ Linked Image ]
Click photo for full-sized version
[ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ]
Click photos for full-sized versions
And one that Lutel created:
[ Linked Image ]
Click photo for full-sized version
I love this kind of sword, which is strange since this usually isn't my type of thing. I'd love to hear more about them.
I think this one by JT Palikko (already mentioned previously) is my favorite recreation.
[ Linked Image ]
I think this one by JT Palikko (already mentioned previously) is my favorite recreation.
[ Linked Image ]
Peter Morwood wrote: |
"Are there fechtbuchen or sections of them which deal with using the complex-hilted hand-and-a-half sabre?"
There's plenty of material about one-handed stuff, dussack, falchion and messer. One could make a case that the cross-hilted kriegsmesser, being only slightly curved, could be used like the straight-bladed longsword for half-swording, cross- and pommel-strikes. But the Schweizersäbel intrigues me, because its elaborate guards would seem to rule out any reversed-sword use: so how was it used? Like a katana? - which if true would make me laugh for several personal and professional reasons! |
Hi Peter,
I wanted to wait and see if anyone else had anything to say about this, as I don't actually know much about this particular weapon, but I'll go ahead and drop my two cents in. I've never seen any manuscripts that specifically explain the use of the complex hilted saber, and that may possibly be due to the fact that we haven't discovered one that's survived. Who knows. But I don't think there needs to be a style *specifically* for this weapon. You've mentioned the messer, dussack, and the falchion: All of these could be used identically with a complex hilted hand and a half saber. After all, there aren't any real distinctions in technique between a cruciform hilted longsword and a complex hilted one.
I think in the end most fighting styles cover a very broad spectrum. German messer techniques are nearly identicle to German longsword techniques despite being very different weapons. This largely has to do with the fact that you don't want to overcomplicate your own learning, you want to do what you've already been trained to do. I don't think there's any reason to assume there'd be anything incredibly different in this case, except for possibly a handful of specific techniques.
Bill –
I agree about similarities of use between cross- and complex-hilted longswords, and I’ve already mentioned that I feel the elaborate hilts on Schweizersäbel – and by extension, straight-bladed swords with similar sweeps, loops and half-baskets – would rule out some of the most characteristic reversed-sword hilt strikes (these would probably be your “handful of specific techniques”.)
That said, I’d question if use of messer, dussack and falchion techniques was “identical” to those of a hand-and-a-half whether curved or straight, simple or complex. Some techniques would have been very similar – I’ve no problem accepting the intent not to overcomplicate matters – but all three weapons were one--handed to such an extent that fechtbuch illustrations usually show the wielder’s off-hand behind his back, or used for defence – not, however, grasping the weapon by either hilt or blade, which in hand-and-a-half longsword practice seems more common than not.
I’ve a feeling that thrusts and half-swording would remain fairly standard with a straight sword regardless of hilt form; the long, deep false edge present on a number of Schweizersäbel (though less often on kriegsmesser *, which frequently seem to have a clipped point) combine with the relative straightness of blade to suggest the same hand-on-blade use – though perhaps less than with a true straight blade. Based on the premise that form usually follows function, where a curve is present (be it ever so slight, as opposed to a completely straight single-edged back-blade) suggests to me a shift of priorities from thrust-and-cut to cut-and-thrust.
Of course, to add variety to the mixture, I found some wild cards. Since most are in the Albums section, I’ll link rather than post images.
This one is listed as a straight-bladed Swiss sabre; but is it more correctly a Swiss-style bastard-hilted backsword? The short crossguard and half-height knucklebow(s) are both very unusual.
This one isn’t actually described as having a straight blade, and photographs can be deceptive, especially if the sword is turned slightly to show the hilt. Even so…
This one is a giant step away from the slightly down-market look of most messer since according to the caption it was made for the Emperor Maximilian.
Here are some of the Emperor’s Landsknechte, carrying kriegsmesser.* Unless the entire rig is just parade dress, those shields might indicate another (and rather scary) “broadsword and buckler” style in which the weapon was used.
* Has there been any agreement on terminology? Peter Johnsson’s upcoming reproductions for Albion Armourers are, respectively, a one-handed grossmesser as per Talhoffer and a hand-and-a-half kriegsmesser as per the couple of illustrations in my last post. Adding to the confusion, I’ve also seen the bigger one called a hiebmesser – (literally, a “slashing-knife”, though “hewing-knife” might be a better translation.) But what’s correct? Enquiring minds – mine, anyway – want to know.
Finally, another step away from simple rivets-and-scales – though not so impressive as Maximilian’s – these are the same weapon from slightly different angles. I couldn’t find them on-line any faster than I could scan and Photoshop, so here they are.
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I agree about similarities of use between cross- and complex-hilted longswords, and I’ve already mentioned that I feel the elaborate hilts on Schweizersäbel – and by extension, straight-bladed swords with similar sweeps, loops and half-baskets – would rule out some of the most characteristic reversed-sword hilt strikes (these would probably be your “handful of specific techniques”.)
That said, I’d question if use of messer, dussack and falchion techniques was “identical” to those of a hand-and-a-half whether curved or straight, simple or complex. Some techniques would have been very similar – I’ve no problem accepting the intent not to overcomplicate matters – but all three weapons were one--handed to such an extent that fechtbuch illustrations usually show the wielder’s off-hand behind his back, or used for defence – not, however, grasping the weapon by either hilt or blade, which in hand-and-a-half longsword practice seems more common than not.
I’ve a feeling that thrusts and half-swording would remain fairly standard with a straight sword regardless of hilt form; the long, deep false edge present on a number of Schweizersäbel (though less often on kriegsmesser *, which frequently seem to have a clipped point) combine with the relative straightness of blade to suggest the same hand-on-blade use – though perhaps less than with a true straight blade. Based on the premise that form usually follows function, where a curve is present (be it ever so slight, as opposed to a completely straight single-edged back-blade) suggests to me a shift of priorities from thrust-and-cut to cut-and-thrust.
Of course, to add variety to the mixture, I found some wild cards. Since most are in the Albums section, I’ll link rather than post images.
This one is listed as a straight-bladed Swiss sabre; but is it more correctly a Swiss-style bastard-hilted backsword? The short crossguard and half-height knucklebow(s) are both very unusual.
This one isn’t actually described as having a straight blade, and photographs can be deceptive, especially if the sword is turned slightly to show the hilt. Even so…
This one is a giant step away from the slightly down-market look of most messer since according to the caption it was made for the Emperor Maximilian.
Here are some of the Emperor’s Landsknechte, carrying kriegsmesser.* Unless the entire rig is just parade dress, those shields might indicate another (and rather scary) “broadsword and buckler” style in which the weapon was used.
* Has there been any agreement on terminology? Peter Johnsson’s upcoming reproductions for Albion Armourers are, respectively, a one-handed grossmesser as per Talhoffer and a hand-and-a-half kriegsmesser as per the couple of illustrations in my last post. Adding to the confusion, I’ve also seen the bigger one called a hiebmesser – (literally, a “slashing-knife”, though “hewing-knife” might be a better translation.) But what’s correct? Enquiring minds – mine, anyway – want to know.
Finally, another step away from simple rivets-and-scales – though not so impressive as Maximilian’s – these are the same weapon from slightly different angles. I couldn’t find them on-line any faster than I could scan and Photoshop, so here they are.
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Peter Morwood wrote: |
That said, I’d question if use of messer, dussack and falchion techniques was “identical” to those of a hand-and-a-half whether curved or straight, simple or complex. Some techniques would have been very similar – I’ve no problem accepting the intent not to overcomplicate matters – but all three weapons were one--handed to such an extent that fechtbuch illustrations usually show the wielder’s off-hand behind his back, or used for defence – not, however, grasping the weapon by either hilt or blade, which in hand-and-a-half longsword practice seems more common than not. |
Oh, I definately understand what you mean. I was sort of speculating as to why there isn't much mention that we know of with these weapons specifically, yet more mention of other weapons that could be considered more "generic", if you will. But, as I mentioned earlier, messer techniques are almost identicle to longsword techniques in the German tradition. (although for some weird reason they felt the need to rename all the guards and strikes... frustrating! :) ) So even though it seems that this saber is a different weapon than the afforementioned ones, I don't think we need to look too far to get a decent idea of how they were used. Particularly since the weapon seems to share much in common with both the messer and the longsword, weapons that seem pretty different at first glance.
I heared a rumour there is a Japanese blade in the Armoury of Skokloster castle here in Sweden that is hilted with a swept hilt of some sort. Just a thing I rememered reading this post. Is there anybody who knows if this runour is correct?
Peter Morwood wrote: |
so how was it used? Like a katana? - which if true would make me laugh for several personal and professional reasons! |
A Japanese blade with a swept hilt...?:eek:
I'm visualising a Japanese swordsmith producing an "interpretation" of a foreign weapon in the same way as guns and cannon were made, but if it's more than just a rumour then it might also be a reverse-engineered Japanese version of a firangi, which properly speaking is a Western blade in a local, usually Indian hilt such as a tulwar or khanda.
If it turns out to be a katana with, as it would have to be, a hand-and-a-half swept-hilt, I won't just laugh, I'll be on the floor... :lol:
Regarding the use of curved blades with straight-blade technique, I went out this morning (before the rain started again; ah, the balmy days of an Irish October...) and ran through a couple of drills. It was real patchwork and will probably make anyone with access to better equipment roll their eyes, because the only curved "blade" in the house is Diane's old bokken; I've been looking at enough Schweizersäbel and kreigsmesser over the past few days to be happy with the curvature, but it's about a foot too short.
Comparison was done (slowly) between the bokken (curved blade, extremely simple guard), and a slightly-customised DT-5140 (waisted grip, curved crossguard); all longsword techniques of cutting, thrusting, half-swording and reversed-sword pommel and cross strikes can be completed without problems; conclusion, a (slightly) curved blade causes no problems.
It was when I tried the same thing with complex hilts that things changed. As mentioned already, since the complex hilts in the house are not correct for late 15th -early 16th century South German/Swiss bastard swords, those who wish to roll their eyes, prepare to do so now...
In order of complexity, I used a DT-5166 early rapier (AVB Norman Type 43 - think A&A Vasa or Milanese: upper and lower side-rings and inner guard, no knucklebow); an A&A Italian Three-Ring (adding a knucklebow to the equation); and finally a slightly customised (backsword blade, narrower and lighter than the standard double) DT new-model Schiavona. This admittedly very rough and ready test indicated several things about those reversed-sword techniques.
(a) As hilt complexity increased, actually getting the sword-hand free of the hilt and onto the blade often turned into a fumble (lots of practice would probably improve this, but why, because...)
(b) The complex hilts (and consequent change of balance for "right-way-up" use) shifted the reversed balance much further out, producing a tendency to slip even through a fairly tight gloved grip; the result could be embarassing - a lost sword - or messy - lost fingers... (This incidentally puts the famous William Hobbes "golf swing" solidly where it belongs, in the realm of stage-combat only!)
(c) Finally, getting the sword-hand back in place was more awkward than with a simple hilt (see (a)).
This was probably a bit of silliness on a damp morning which certainly hasn't added significantly to the world's store of knowledge since it proved nothing except the fairly obvious which I could have done in my head: that a man trained in longsword could probably use a kriegsmesser without a second thought. The same man might find himself having interesting problems doing the same with a full-hilted Schweizersäbel if he forgot himself and tried something with a reversed sword. Probably the same difficulties would arise with similarly full-hilted straight bastard swords; however, if he'd been trained on those he'd already know what techniques he couldn't - or indeed shouldn't - attempt .
Next year, with luck, I'll get myself a repro Schweizersäbel from one or other of the sources who've been mentioned here; I may not know what I can do with it. but I'll have a reasonable notion of what I can't... :)
I think what I heard was that the Tashi blade came to the Castle in the 17 hundreds and the cutler or armourer there didnt know what to do with it so they rehilted it with something that looked more familliar, i.e a swept hilt!
It is a cool armoury the one at Skokloster Castle!
It is a cool armoury the one at Skokloster Castle!
Hey Martin,
I don't know about the particular sword you're referring to, but it wasn't uncommon for rich people in the 17th century and beyond to collect Japanese swords, and in many cases have the blades hilted with European styles. In fact, the reverse is also true, where the Japanese used European weapons with Japanese decorations. There of course are also examples of weapons from another culture that were copied but using local decorations. In the Philedelphia Museum of Art there's a beautiful Japanese smallsword hilt that, at first glance, looks very European until you look at the motif.
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/3505.html
I know I've seen pictures somewhere of swords from 17th century collectors that had European hilts mounted to katana blades, so the example you mention sounds like it may possibly fall into this category.
Peter,
I don't understand what you mean by reversed-sword use. I also don't understand what you mean when you say the complex hilt gets in the way. Could you clarify? Thanks!
I don't know about the particular sword you're referring to, but it wasn't uncommon for rich people in the 17th century and beyond to collect Japanese swords, and in many cases have the blades hilted with European styles. In fact, the reverse is also true, where the Japanese used European weapons with Japanese decorations. There of course are also examples of weapons from another culture that were copied but using local decorations. In the Philedelphia Museum of Art there's a beautiful Japanese smallsword hilt that, at first glance, looks very European until you look at the motif.
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/3505.html
I know I've seen pictures somewhere of swords from 17th century collectors that had European hilts mounted to katana blades, so the example you mention sounds like it may possibly fall into this category.
Peter,
I don't understand what you mean by reversed-sword use. I also don't understand what you mean when you say the complex hilt gets in the way. Could you clarify? Thanks!
Bill Grandy wrote: |
Peter, I don't understand what you mean by reversed-sword use. I also don't understand what you mean when you say the complex hilt gets in the way. Could you clarify? Thanks! |
Bill –
"reversed-sword" refers to the Schlachenden Ort in Chapter 39 of Tobler’s Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship; things like Mortschlag and Donner/Tunrschlag where both hands are on the blade and the hilt and/or pommel is used against the opponent, rather than “half-sword” which retains one hand on the hilt.
As for a complex hilt “getting in the way”, when doing my short (and probably fairly unsound) test yesterday, I was finding that the more elaborate the hilt was, the more trouble I was having in getting my sword-hand out of the hilt and onto the blade. For a given value of “trouble”, I should add. I wasn’t getting my cuff hung up as if on barbed wire or anything like that, just that every so often I would rap my knuckles or scrape my fingers with some part of the hilt.
Even allowing for my own clumsiness and lack of practice in doing this with such hilts, I was coming to the conclusion that a fairly plain cruciform (as on an ordinary longsword or indeed a kreigsmesser) was required in order to get hand to blade with smoothness and speed. It satisfied me that this was one part of Medieval longsword play that probably fell by the wayside as bastard-sword hilts gained more rings, half-baskets etc.; and that this probably applied to the techniques of Schweizersäbel use as well.
I'll have to be careful; I started this thread by asking how a Schweizersäbel might be used, and by this stage I've started to "reconstruct" how it couldn't be used with no more than my own unfounded theories - and no actual example to work from.
A picture of that Japanese sword from Skokloster Castle would be much appreciated though (he hinted with all the subtlety of a brick through a window...) ;)
Ah, now I understand. Thanks, Peter.
That's an interesting point about the complex guard, and one I hadn't thought about. I've used complex hilted bastard swords to strike with the hilt, but they didn't have guards that covered the full grip, so it's not quite the same. Hmmm... interesting.
On the other hand, the mortschlag isn't ideal for all longswords, as the blade type really has a lot to do with it's effectiveness. Very sharp, thin cross sectioned blades feel awkward and wobbly for this type of strike. Stiffer blades that have less acute blade geometry, such as type XVa's and XVII's, tend to feel much better in the hand. I don't know what kind of blade is typical for a two handed saber, but I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't really see these types of strikes commonly used with them, but with other longsword techniques prominent.
That's an interesting point about the complex guard, and one I hadn't thought about. I've used complex hilted bastard swords to strike with the hilt, but they didn't have guards that covered the full grip, so it's not quite the same. Hmmm... interesting.
On the other hand, the mortschlag isn't ideal for all longswords, as the blade type really has a lot to do with it's effectiveness. Very sharp, thin cross sectioned blades feel awkward and wobbly for this type of strike. Stiffer blades that have less acute blade geometry, such as type XVa's and XVII's, tend to feel much better in the hand. I don't know what kind of blade is typical for a two handed saber, but I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't really see these types of strikes commonly used with them, but with other longsword techniques prominent.
Quote: |
This one is listed as a straight-bladed Swiss sabre; but is it more correctly a Swiss-style bastard-hilted backsword? The short crossguard and half-height knucklebow(s) are both very unusual. |
The half-length knuckle-bow isn't that unusual of a feature. It's common on swords in Zürich and has been documented in many books. One that comes to mind is in Claude Blair's European & American Arms, c. 1100-1850. It's also discussed in European Weapons & Armour: From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution, by Ewart Oakeshott.
The quillons on these pieces are generally short in profile, but that's because they're recurved. The recurve is seen in both horizontal and vertical fashion. I believe I've seen only straight blades on these types of hilts, but I'm saying that soley out of memory.
The sword linked above may very well be a reproduction (though, antique), which may explain the short straight quillons and apparent excellent condition of that example.
Bill Grandy wrote: |
Hey Martin,
I don't know about the particular sword you're referring to, but it wasn't uncommon for rich people in the 17th century and beyond to collect Japanese swords, and in many cases have the blades hilted with European styles. In fact, the reverse is also true, where the Japanese used European weapons with Japanese decorations. There of course are also examples of weapons from another culture that were copied but using local decorations. In the Philedelphia Museum of Art there's a beautiful Japanese smallsword hilt that, at first glance, looks very European until you look at the motif. |
Bill,
I saw one over on the nihonto message list, that someone had put up as a joke... it was on ebay, and was unfortunately broken in half. It was a katana that had had the nakago modified (expertly, judging by shape) into a tang for a Hungarian or Prussian sabre.. probably would have had a D or P guard, and a deeply canted grip. Was pretty cool, or would have been, before it was broken in half, with a 2 inch wide v shaped notch missing from the middle of the blade.
Peter Morwood wrote: |
The ones I mean weren’t falchions and they weren’t messer. Let me be a bit pedantic while I describe what I don’t mean…
What I’m referring to is the true Schnepfe (“Snipe”; because its blade curve resembled that bird’s beak) – the hand-and-a-half sabre with a far-from-simple half-basket guard; one of which can be seen here as made by JT Pälikkö of Finland, and based quite a lot on the Wallace Collection's A489 (p.148 in Edge & Paddock’s Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight.) It seems impossible to me that there wasn’t a specific style of fighting for this weapon: double-edged for only that part of the blade which had a false edge running 10-12 inches back from the point, the rest with a blunt back allowing much more positive off-hand pressure than half-swording a double-edged longsword even with a gauntlet, a (slight) curve which must have prompted more frequent use of draw-cuts than a straight blade, and an elaborate guard echoing those on straight double- and back-bladed swords from the same area of Europe. While gross/krieg/hieb-messer play must have been quite similar in basic respects to that of the South German/Swiss sabre, there must have been something about the use of the more elaborate weapon to justify the fitting of guards more complex than a single side-ring. Unless, of course, it was something as simple as conspicuous consumption: a wealthy merchant-adventurer (from the Hansa trading ports, maybe, though both geography and period are a bit off) spending a lot of money on sword-furniture for a blade not much different to that carried by the average well-off burgher, just because he could… Does anyone know if there were fechtbuchen, or chapters in same, dealing with these weapons? I’ve come up blank, and any advice, links or pointers would be much appreciated. |
Hi Peter,
I just noticed this post. I share your interest in the Schwyzsäbel (Swiss sabre) and am planning on having one made for historical fencing. Unfortunately, I know of no fechtbuch dealing specifically with the complex hilted Swiss sabre. My practice at the moment revolves around the longsword in the Liechtenauer tradition, which I think forms a fine basis for the Swiss sabre, with some modifications. Another thing to look closely at are the messer texts within the tradition, especially Lekuchner - again, while the complex guard adds some impediment to certain techniques, I believe the underlying principles will be very effective, and the German art is based on a set of core principles that are effective with any weapon, with the required modifications to individual techniques.
Some of the short edge cuts may need to be excised, or at least, modified depending on how extensive the complex hilt is - actually striking with the short edge is no problem, as most of the versions I have seen (in photographs) seem to have a sharp back edge for 8 to 10 inches or so, and even without an edge, the impact of the short edge would be reasonably effective as a blow. The winden are more interesting, as the curved blade opens up all kinds of possibilities.
As to the actual form of the Schwyzsäbel, I think the development of the complex guard is simply in keeping with the increasing use of complex guards on all types of swords during the 16th century, and the decreasing use of gauntlets. Plus, it looks uber cool, no small consideration for such a sword during the 16th century.
Cheers,
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