Just in case the people who produce that show are reading our correspondance, I would endorse the two following icons for a face off of the Deadliest Warriors... PeeWee Herman and Mr Bean... I'm sure they can get 90 minutes out of that....and if they wish equal time gender wise, well, Tracey Ullman vs Ellen De Generes....choice of weapons as realistic as possible, lazer ninja morning stars and viking two handed longswords, carried on their backs... of course I'm serious... I am after all a product of the world of television, internet and nintendo....
This is somewhat off topic, but I'll put it here. My biggest problem with the History channel is the nonstop crap that they keep flashing on the bottom of the screen. It's hard to concentrate on the program when you are constantly assaulted by all the junk they put there. Nobody liked pop-ups on the internet, why would they think that it's ok to do it on television? Oh yeah, the show is pretty dumb too.
Does anyone know where the viking experts (cough, cough) got the idea of double spear throwing? I seem top have missed that.
Well, after all that I had to check the show out. Just like a car accident, I'm sorry I looked. If it wasn't called "The
History Channel" it wouldn't be so galling. The show is utter dreckigkeit, and those are twenty minutes of my life I'll
never get back. That being said, my proposed battle royale, "Casper the friendly ghost vs Richie Rich" in a winner
take all Precious Off.
Doug G.
History Channel" it wouldn't be so galling. The show is utter dreckigkeit, and those are twenty minutes of my life I'll
never get back. That being said, my proposed battle royale, "Casper the friendly ghost vs Richie Rich" in a winner
take all Precious Off.
Doug G.
The Deadliest Warrior is not a history channel production but appears on Spike TV.
Justin Potter-MacSwain says:
That was something I was thinking too. I don't think it's too unlikely actually, a lot of the sagas had some pretty wild stuff in them and there's always the one idiot who wants to do something cool like that. I could see someone throwing two spears into a group of the enemy prior to hand-to-hand fighting. Of course, they'd better get out their shield right quick and keep an eye out for enemy projectiles or they may find themselves in the sagas extra early.
| Quote: |
| Does anyone know where the viking experts (cough, cough) got the idea of double spear throwing? I seem top have missed that. |
That was something I was thinking too. I don't think it's too unlikely actually, a lot of the sagas had some pretty wild stuff in them and there's always the one idiot who wants to do something cool like that. I could see someone throwing two spears into a group of the enemy prior to hand-to-hand fighting. Of course, they'd better get out their shield right quick and keep an eye out for enemy projectiles or they may find themselves in the sagas extra early.
OK, this is a little off topic but modern peoples problems with understanding history seems to stem from not accepting reality in the first place, Remember if it happens inside the gates of a fair its not real its all CGI.
The following are comments from the general public (the main viewers for this sort of tv show) I have heard in my time as a re-enactor.
Is that pig real or is it made of wax?
No stop! I dont want to know where meat comes from.
I get that they didn't have cars but if it was so far why didn't they just fly there?
I reckon those pirate guns would just give you a black eye.
(on an ocasion where a combattant was bleading profusely) Na that's fake he's just pretending..looks real though.
They would'nt really have flags and drums and things, thats just makebelieve.
Swords used to be able to cut people but then guns were invented and swords stopped being able to cut you.
I dont see how just stepping could make you hit harder than spinning in a circle.
If there was a line of guys with spears I would just do a flip over them..... THATS a spear!? I thought they were just like a broom stick with a fence spike on top.
A hand gun is more powerful than a crossbow because if i shoot you in the groin you die instantly a crossbow can't do that.
(A father to his childeren) It's ok kids you can touch the fire its not real.
are you sure its real, not a projection?
(A middle aged woman about sex) I dont think they did that sort of thing back then did they?
(15 year old girl) Was all that stuff with Hitler and ww2 real or just made up caus I thought people were like always like how they are now.
( Me in frustration) Gees! when your roasting a deer they think its a lamb, when its a lamb they think it's a chiken!
I heard about this battle where a group of pesants without weapons beat a whole army of knights.
Sadly half the members of the general public think we (and history)are fake and TV/Games/movies are real, they watch programs like this then come to living history events to "educate" people who spend years of painstaking research on fabric alone!
Thats why I've decided to just nod politly and save conversation for those few who ask ernest historical questions(You know, the ones who remind you of you as a kid. LOL)
The rest don't care less.
The following are comments from the general public (the main viewers for this sort of tv show) I have heard in my time as a re-enactor.
Is that pig real or is it made of wax?
No stop! I dont want to know where meat comes from.
I get that they didn't have cars but if it was so far why didn't they just fly there?
I reckon those pirate guns would just give you a black eye.
(on an ocasion where a combattant was bleading profusely) Na that's fake he's just pretending..looks real though.
They would'nt really have flags and drums and things, thats just makebelieve.
Swords used to be able to cut people but then guns were invented and swords stopped being able to cut you.
I dont see how just stepping could make you hit harder than spinning in a circle.
If there was a line of guys with spears I would just do a flip over them..... THATS a spear!? I thought they were just like a broom stick with a fence spike on top.
A hand gun is more powerful than a crossbow because if i shoot you in the groin you die instantly a crossbow can't do that.
(A father to his childeren) It's ok kids you can touch the fire its not real.
are you sure its real, not a projection?
(A middle aged woman about sex) I dont think they did that sort of thing back then did they?
(15 year old girl) Was all that stuff with Hitler and ww2 real or just made up caus I thought people were like always like how they are now.
( Me in frustration) Gees! when your roasting a deer they think its a lamb, when its a lamb they think it's a chiken!
I heard about this battle where a group of pesants without weapons beat a whole army of knights.
Sadly half the members of the general public think we (and history)are fake and TV/Games/movies are real, they watch programs like this then come to living history events to "educate" people who spend years of painstaking research on fabric alone!
Thats why I've decided to just nod politly and save conversation for those few who ask ernest historical questions(You know, the ones who remind you of you as a kid. LOL)
The rest don't care less.
| Nathan Johnson wrote: |
| OK, this is a little off topic but modern peoples problems with understanding history seems to stem from not accepting reality in the first place, Remember if it happens inside the gates of a fair its not real its all CGI... |
Oh, yes, I was just talking about this with some of our newer members in Legio XX yesterday. As I see it, the vast majority of our visitors, kids especially, were born and raised in a modern urban or suburban environment. With the possible exception of a few Scouts, they've never seen a real fire, or a sharp blade other than a kitchen knife or an X-acto. The only wild animals they see are squirrels and maybe a rabbit. So actual campfires, bladed weapons, and things like our signifer's wolf pelt are completely alien objects to them.
On the other hand, they are exposed practically from birth to huge amounts of TV and computer games, in much too huge a quantity to be assimilated in any logical sense. So upon seeing a Roman reenactor, they just associate him with whatever movie or game they last experienced. (I once had a whole *private* school full of supposedly above-average students asking me "Are you from 300??" It was a long day...) Now, in all fairness, they usually *ask*, "Are you a (whatever)?", and I do my best to fill them in properly. But it is clear that they suck down everything they see on TV or in the movies as fact rather drama.
But at the same time, they are at least subconciously aware that a lot of what they see on the screen is special effects or CGI. Since that's how things are done, they assume that what we are showing them is also faked in some way. So the first question about practically everything is, "Is that REAL??" That's okay, because we can educate them. That's what we do! Chipping away at ignorance, one receptive mind at a time. We can't possibly keep up with Spike TV, but we have to keep at it. Bottom line is that the modern world is just SO different from earlier times, that many people simply don't have a basis for comparison other than mass media--and it's a bad comparison!
Oddly enough, it also works the other way. One of my legionaries has equipped himself as a standard-bearer or signifer, with a wolf pelt worn on his helmet and hanging down his back. He's very proud of it, and brings it out whenever he can, even though he can't wear it more than a couple hours because of the weight and heat (he's one of my older guys). And he is continually exasperated that practically every visitor is enthralled by the wolf pelt, wanting to pet it, and always asking if it's real! "Can't they tell?!" he gripes. "I mean, what do they think it is, CGI?" It's always kind of funny, because the visitors share his enthusiasm but don't have his knowledge. He expects too much of them, forgetting how much reading and studying he has done specifically on ancient Rome to learn what he knows.
So keep busting myths wherever you encounter them. But keep in mind that our ignorant and tragically misinformed spectators are not the enemy, they're the victims.
Valete,
Matthew
| Nathan Johnson wrote: |
|
(A father to his childeren) It's ok kids you can touch the fire its not real. . |
I think this is the one that made me start crying with laughter.
Gee, I remember when we didn't have CGI. As a matter of fact, I even remember when we didn't have computers (yes, I'm dating myself). All we had were these things called "books," and some of them even had pictures in them! They were kept in this strange building called a "Library."
To further date myself, we didn't even have a television set in our house until I was seven. We actually had to go outside and play, i.e., use our imagination...
And when we finaly got a television, it was black and white, and only had two channels, and only one of those worked, unless my little brother held onto the rabbit ears while we watched. Trust me, I'm not making this up...
To further date myself, we didn't even have a television set in our house until I was seven. We actually had to go outside and play, i.e., use our imagination...
And when we finaly got a television, it was black and white, and only had two channels, and only one of those worked, unless my little brother held onto the rabbit ears while we watched. Trust me, I'm not making this up...
lol, I actually enjoyed this.. just like the way I enjoyed Xena the warrior princess : an orgy of historical nonsense. but Xena was great.
Peter,
We weren't nearly as primitive in our house, we had at least four channels on our television. ;) Of course two of them only came in half the time and nothing was on the air after midnight. I learned quite a bit about life in the woods out back or a vacant field down the street, far more than I could have from television or computer games.
Matthew,
Every time I attend an event I get subjected to similar questions: is it real? is that sharp? is it heavy? is it really metal? That last one usually concerns my helmet, since it's painted they seem to think it's plastic for some reason.
Very true and quite apt. This is why I really don't mind these questions, at least they're asking them. Every time I attend an event I do get at least on or two people who actually pose intelligent and thoughtfull questions so hope isn't completely dead.
I finally watched the Samurai v. Viking episode. In the words of another fictional television character, "Sweet fancy Moses!"
We weren't nearly as primitive in our house, we had at least four channels on our television. ;) Of course two of them only came in half the time and nothing was on the air after midnight. I learned quite a bit about life in the woods out back or a vacant field down the street, far more than I could have from television or computer games.
Matthew,
Every time I attend an event I get subjected to similar questions: is it real? is that sharp? is it heavy? is it really metal? That last one usually concerns my helmet, since it's painted they seem to think it's plastic for some reason.
| Quote: |
| spectators are not the enemy, they're the victims. |
Very true and quite apt. This is why I really don't mind these questions, at least they're asking them. Every time I attend an event I do get at least on or two people who actually pose intelligent and thoughtfull questions so hope isn't completely dead.
I finally watched the Samurai v. Viking episode. In the words of another fictional television character, "Sweet fancy Moses!"
Patrick;
It seems that everybody from our generation had a vacant lot to play in! If it wasn't knights or Robin Hood, it was cowboys, pirates, or Daniel Boone. It depended on what book you read that week.
I've spent the last thirty years trying to educate the public; how sucessful I've been is anyones guess. Programs like this certainly don't help. And although I'm extremely patient with the public, there are always more people who have formed their own opinion based on programs like this, and won't listent to you (as you try to explain the proper historical side), than there are those who are genuinely willing to listen, and want to know the correct answer to their question.
Sigh...
It seems that everybody from our generation had a vacant lot to play in! If it wasn't knights or Robin Hood, it was cowboys, pirates, or Daniel Boone. It depended on what book you read that week.
I've spent the last thirty years trying to educate the public; how sucessful I've been is anyones guess. Programs like this certainly don't help. And although I'm extremely patient with the public, there are always more people who have formed their own opinion based on programs like this, and won't listent to you (as you try to explain the proper historical side), than there are those who are genuinely willing to listen, and want to know the correct answer to their question.
Sigh...
I feel your frustration, Peter.
I find some comfort in knowing that these programs often serve the purpose of generating some interest in the subject from people who would otherwise have absolutely no interest in it. I hope that these people then go through the efforts of watching the next type of television show on a similar subject and then move onto browsing the 'net for info and finding sites like this one and eventually buying books or being exposed to some information of value.
If these bad sources of info can help serve to convert disinterested people, they've at least provided some good. There are, of course, many ways I'd prefer to to this same process. I've chosen my method with this site, for example.
I find some comfort in knowing that these programs often serve the purpose of generating some interest in the subject from people who would otherwise have absolutely no interest in it. I hope that these people then go through the efforts of watching the next type of television show on a similar subject and then move onto browsing the 'net for info and finding sites like this one and eventually buying books or being exposed to some information of value.
If these bad sources of info can help serve to convert disinterested people, they've at least provided some good. There are, of course, many ways I'd prefer to to this same process. I've chosen my method with this site, for example.
| Justin Potter-MacSwain wrote: |
| Does anyone know where the viking experts (cough, cough) got the idea of double spear throwing? I seem top have missed that. |
It looks like these, ahem, experts apparently thought that this was done routinely. This was a special skill that only a few vikings mastered. But it was presented as if EVERY viking did this. Not all vikings were ambidextrous. There were some who could do this but it was a specialty skill that few possessed, although it was misleadingly presented as if EVERY viking did it. There were other special skills that certain viking developed too, such as stepping directly into the path of an incoming javelin, catching it with a backhanded motion, and hurling it back to the enemy in one smooth motion. But this, like the two-handed spear throw, was the exception, not the rule.
Nathan -
In spite of all my complaining, I am convinced that there are a lot more people now who are more educated about history than there were when I first got into this game. There's nothing more gratifying than meeting someone at an event who has the same passion I do for the medieval period, and knows as much (or more!) than I do. I cherish those times, and they are more frequent now than they were in the past.
Jeff -
You are absolutely right, and herein lies the fatal flaw with this program; they assume that all samuri or all vikings were the same (skills, weapons, etc.), and they ignore the fact that each one was an INDIVIDUAL. Their age, their skill, their weapons and their armour were as individual as they were. Could a samurai defeat a viking? Possibly, but the next two who met each other would provide a different outcome. Not all samurai used a naganata, and not all vikings carried a spear (or two spears). Not all vikings wore a byrnie; actually only the most wealthy could afford them. That would change the dynamic of a fight considerably. Not all samurai could afford full armour either, so the entire premise of this show is moot.
Could a samurai defeat a viking? Who knows for sure? And really, since they never would meet historically, who cares?
It's the age-old "My dad can beat your dad."
In spite of all my complaining, I am convinced that there are a lot more people now who are more educated about history than there were when I first got into this game. There's nothing more gratifying than meeting someone at an event who has the same passion I do for the medieval period, and knows as much (or more!) than I do. I cherish those times, and they are more frequent now than they were in the past.
Jeff -
You are absolutely right, and herein lies the fatal flaw with this program; they assume that all samuri or all vikings were the same (skills, weapons, etc.), and they ignore the fact that each one was an INDIVIDUAL. Their age, their skill, their weapons and their armour were as individual as they were. Could a samurai defeat a viking? Possibly, but the next two who met each other would provide a different outcome. Not all samurai used a naganata, and not all vikings carried a spear (or two spears). Not all vikings wore a byrnie; actually only the most wealthy could afford them. That would change the dynamic of a fight considerably. Not all samurai could afford full armour either, so the entire premise of this show is moot.
Could a samurai defeat a viking? Who knows for sure? And really, since they never would meet historically, who cares?
It's the age-old "My dad can beat your dad."
Here's an active thread on The Armor Archive with comments by people peripherally involved in the show.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=96655
Peter,
Like Nathan, one of the few positives I try to take away from shows like this is perhaps it will fan the flames of interest in a few minds. After all, most of us didn't begin with a desire to learn the historical truths of the matter, but rather we moved on to that after starting with things like J. R. R. Tolkien, Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs. Hopefully this show could serve that purpose for others.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=96655
Peter,
Like Nathan, one of the few positives I try to take away from shows like this is perhaps it will fan the flames of interest in a few minds. After all, most of us didn't begin with a desire to learn the historical truths of the matter, but rather we moved on to that after starting with things like J. R. R. Tolkien, Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs. Hopefully this show could serve that purpose for others.
Knight vs. Pirate
(spoken in David Wendham's overly dramatic 300 narration voice):
The heavily armored knight was no match for the broadside he recieved from the pirate's Man of War. Sadly, the chivarous warrior lost the advantage when his horse refused to row the dinghy into a better position to use his lance against the ship.
I am expecting something like this very soon! :D
(spoken in David Wendham's overly dramatic 300 narration voice):
The heavily armored knight was no match for the broadside he recieved from the pirate's Man of War. Sadly, the chivarous warrior lost the advantage when his horse refused to row the dinghy into a better position to use his lance against the ship.
I am expecting something like this very soon! :D
I think I can understand Spike's reasoning behind not putting more resources into the show; history in general and arms and armor in particular are niche interests compared to their mainstream material. And people who spend time on this website are likely not Spike's target demographic. Still, I can't help but feel that they missed the boat on this one. Spike's viewers are young, male, and into sports and martial arts. I think the producers really underestimated the attention span of people like when it comes to the finer details of carving up a gel dummy. The folks I've known who are really into MMA have tons of respect for and interest in the details of technique, and I don't see why it would be any different for the accurate terminology and uses of armor/weapons.
And regardless of how uninformed the producers of the show are they could just come here and ask for consultants and they would have 20 volunteers within the week. Personally I didn't have either a huge interest or any knowledge base about historical arms until I found this website, months later here I am (now lots of interest ... still without the knowledge but now I know where I can look it up). I'd bet that given good info lots of Spike viewers would end up the same way.
And regardless of how uninformed the producers of the show are they could just come here and ask for consultants and they would have 20 volunteers within the week. Personally I didn't have either a huge interest or any knowledge base about historical arms until I found this website, months later here I am (now lots of interest ... still without the knowledge but now I know where I can look it up). I'd bet that given good info lots of Spike viewers would end up the same way.
If the show is successful and gets good ratings not doubt there will be more such shows in the future. Competitors will want to try and get in on the trend of viewer interest. The next show that comes along has to do something better. People always demand more and more. There is a good chance that the next show may take the path you would like to see it take. I think we may be asking to much to expect them to step right up to the level of the people in this forum. How many of us started out at a high level... or did we not all just start out in the 2nd grade using rulers as swords.
I can understand that some of you old-timmers may be getting tired of saying the same basic things over and over to newbies. It is not necessarily your duty to instruct every person you come across in a forum for the rest of your life. The people you taught two years ago can do the teaching.
I can understand that some of you old-timmers may be getting tired of saying the same basic things over and over to newbies. It is not necessarily your duty to instruct every person you come across in a forum for the rest of your life. The people you taught two years ago can do the teaching.
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