Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Sun 04 Oct, 2009 4:31 pm
Michael Edelson wrote: |
You've both made good points. I just want to shine a light on something everyone already knows...this happens in every online community. If you banned all HEMA from myArmoury, would any of these issues really go away? |
Not sure where this is coming from, why it's being mentioned, or what it has to do with this topic. Since you bring it up, I better respond. I don't want anyone banned. That would be ideal for me: nobody ever to be banned. In fact, I don't want to moderate. Ever. It's not a fun job. Sucks, to be honest.
Quote: |
Communicating online is a difficult skill to learn, and a nearly impossible one to master. I don't think anyone, or any community, should ever be judged for their failure to do so. |
I agree that it's painfully difficult. I know that I'm particularly bad at it. I'm very bad at it. I'll disagree with you, however, in that I think it's absolutely reasonable for a person to form an opinion based on the way in which I convey myself in all of my communications: online or otherwise. I'd hope they'd have a different lens than they would otherwise, but I'm going to assume they're still looking. I put myself out there and it's only fair to assume people are going to have an opinion on it.
I'm also aware that I have to put another type of hat on when I'm on this site and, well, it's a reality that isn't particularly fun for me. I accept that reality. I'd think others would also consider these realities for their own situations and own 'em, too.
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Sun 04 Oct, 2009 4:42 pm
Nathan Robinson wrote: |
Michael Edelson wrote: | You've both made good points. I just want to shine a light on something everyone already knows...this happens in every online community. If you banned all HEMA from myArmoury, would any of these issues really go away? |
Not sure where this is coming from, why it's being mentioned, or what it has to do with this topic. Since you bring it up, I better respond. I don't want anyone banned. That would be ideal for me: nobody ever to be banned. In fact, I don't want to moderate. Ever. It's not a fun job. Sucks, to be honest. |
Hi Nathan,
I meant that as a support to the argument that HEMA has no more and no less of this type of communication than any other community, and that it is unfair to single out HEMA in this respect. The ban thing was just another way to say that if you cut off the diseased limb of a dieased animal, the animal will still be just as diseased. In no way was it a criticism of your moderation policies. I don't really keep up with such matters and have no criticism of any kind in that regard, and I apologize if it was taken as such. I agree with those who say that this is one of the most civil forums out there.
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Sun 04 Oct, 2009 5:17 pm
Chad Arnow wrote: |
There is a need for some of these people to say they're right and others are therefore wrong, and a need to have the last word. So the pointless discussion continues and casts a bad light and turns people off. |
I’m not sure that the flare ups are really pointless for all participants. In fact, for a minority of the participants in these online flare-ups, I think there are very good business reasons for creating conflict.
Most of the WMA/HEMA practitioners that I’ve met (admittedly very few of them) spend their time studying WMA/HEMA because of passion and a desire for personal discovery. This also comes through in many of the posts practitioners make here and elsewhere. However, for a small minority of the participants in WMA/HEMA there seems to be a business side to their interest (an investment that is more than personal) and some repeated behaviors seem to indicate that building brand recognition is worth creating a little strife and discord.
Ironically, it seems like collectors went through something very similar to this in the production sword collecting community not all that long ago (in another online forum).
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Sun 04 Oct, 2009 6:56 pm
There seem to be a few separate issues here:
1) General on-line behavior
2) Communications skills
3) Agendas, stubbornness, egos etc ....
All the joys and pitfalls of on-line communication. ( Personally I try to be exactly as courteous on-line as I would be in person ).
Oh, and please no reading anything negative in the above aimed at any particular previous poster.
Getting back to the original question or comment by Chad:
If his impressions of on-line HEMA discussions have turned him off wanting to join a group it is in itself a " reality " that needs to be addressed as a problem for the " community ", but in a way it is more a community of individuals or groups traveling the same road but not always using the same road map or " interpretations " of the MAP ! One could almost hear from the back seat drivers " ARE WE THERE YET, ARE WE THERE YET, ARE WE THERE YET, ARE WE THERE YET, ". ;) :p
I can't speak at all for any group other than my own, but I think that Chad's perceptions are heavily influenced by years of having to " herd cats " moderating this Forum and other disharmonious discussions he has read elsewhere !?
I know that with my director he does respectfully listen and answer questions about interpretations and will listen to the ideas of even " newbees " and it is very easy to bring up alternative interpretations.
The actual classes are done in a relaxed but still respectful of the instructor and basically we have fun and don't think we are curing cancer or something. ;)
At least with the face to face discussions and training I just don't experience any of the negatives or contradictions of people being open and courteous in person and acting " badly " on-line.
Bottom line: I'm not dismissing Chad's reluctance or lack of enthusiasm to practice some form of HEMA but I can say that to me it's a very valuable form of both physical and mental training and I come out of a class refreshed and as stress free as anyone can get ! If it was emotionally draining due to obnoxious attitudes or behavior I wouldn't bother showing up.
Hope this is helpful and get the discussion in a positive and productive direction. ;) :D :cool:
Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Sun 04 Oct, 2009 7:32 pm
Just turn the computer off, step away and engage face to face with people in the real world, you'll see how all of this will usually work itself out in a matter of minutes, if not seconds. Yet here in cyberspace we have two threads currently running on the same general area of topicality, threads that are now running into several pages with no resolution in sight yet few participants seem to be willing to simply agree to disagree and move on.
Is it reasonable for people to form an opinion based solely on their cyber-experience? Sure it is, we all come to conclusions based on our experiences no matter what they may be. Then again, as reasonably intelligent and mature adults we should also realize that a conclusion based solely upon internet interaction is a very limited one, thusly it can only give us a very limited view into the given subject. Consequently, we should acknowledge those limitations and expand our experience before coming to a concrete conclusion. Deciding not to engage in a given activity based solely upon internet experience may be reasonable but it's hardly effective or productive.
The internet is a wonderful tool for dispensing information, yet is an absolutely horrible venue for people to have any real meaningful communication. Example: a few years ago when I was still part of the admin here we all met at the Atlanta Blade Show. Chad and I had a great time interacting with each other in person and I found I liked him a lot. On the flip side of that coin, because of our personalities Chad and I always had a lot of friction between us when dealing with each other on-line. There's no criticism implied here since it takes two people to start and continue a fight, I just using it as an example of the problems that routinely occur when people are taken out of their natural element and limited to internet communication. Now that's just my own opinion and feel free to kick me around a bit on it since Chad's been right-crossed with the keyboard enough.
:D
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sun 04 Oct, 2009 7:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
Posts: 656
Sun 04 Oct, 2009 7:36 pm
Yes, I agree with Jean, I'm sort of losing the thread here and I'm somewhat unsure if we're talking about item 1,2 or 3.
(breakdown courtesy of Jean)
1) General on-line behavior
2) Communications skills
3) Agendas, stubbornness, egos etc ....
If we're talking about item 3:
I'll freely admit that I've never been a member of a HEMA group but I have practiced two Asian martial arts and I think that Chad will find what he wants in HEMA groups when angels start practicing martial arts. I can see that Chad would be hesitant to join any particular HEMA group because his position here would tend to give practitioners of that art another argument for their art being the best, "We must have the true and complete art because WE have Chad Arnow as member and the other guys don't."
Not that my advice was asked for but if you plan on joining a group you can pretty well expect Pareto's Law to be in effect and 10% will be exceptionally wonderful people and 10% will be exceptionally obnoxious people and the rest will fall in the middle.
Posts: 583
Sun 04 Oct, 2009 9:48 pm
Anders Backlund wrote: |
Not-so-serious-suggestion: Have all HEMA factions duke it out in a huge tournament.
Whoever wins is right. ;) |
You know, that is quite a popular method in the eastern arts...in fact that is precisely how jeet kun do was accepted as a legitimate martial arts vs an unconventional one. And still quite a popular method still...although the issue is it proves nothing other then who is the better fighter...not the better martial arts. I´m quite happy that the vast majority of the WMA people stay away from such childishness to ¨prove¨ things...although I have to say I do sadly see a lot of this from the ARMA crowd. While the leadership doesn´t support this, they also don´t admonish it either, which is what Chad and Nathan is pointing at.
Posts: 1,435 Location: California, Maryland, USA
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 12:05 am
When it comes to the MEMAG guys, their online conduct (what limited amount I had) lead me to believe they were an interesting and thoughtful group of people.
I met John and Cory in real life and discovered I was correct.
With ARMA, which seems to have caused the problem here, I get the impression that their head guy is...egocentric and very proud of what he does. I don't like this, and it rubs me the wrong way. I hope if I meet him in reality, I turn out to be wrong.
In any case, unless someone physically chokeslams you or those of yours, there's no reason to want, unwant, like, dislike, etc. anything they do. We don't get paid enough for that. I'm sure I'm nothing online like I am in person, but I can never be sure. I hope the way I present myself here doesn't give anyone reservations about meeting me in reality, as I try to avoid having reservations about any members here, even if a few do bother me sometimes.
M.
Posts: 871 Location: Paris, France
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 1:42 am
Michael Edelson wrote: |
One of the reasons you see so much bickering on forums is that forums generally take a very neutral, everyone's opinion is worth as much as any one else's approach. Leading authorities in HEMA are on equal footing with self proclaimed experts who don't know enough about the subject being discussed to merit being in the discussion in the first place, let alone challenging the views of established researchers and martial artists. Now some people might think this is a good thing, that everyone should get an equal say, that people should be judged based on what they say, not who they are. That's a great way to look at things, but when the people listening don't know very much about the subject being discussed, how can they judge what is being said? |
I'm one of the people that think it's a good thing :) And not an excuse for any impolite behaviour...
As you said, when someone says something foolish about medieval swords, Chad, Nathan or others come forth and say it's foolish. But they don't do just that; they say why it is foolish, quote sources, criticize the ideas, not the person. The answers are educative, not just for the guy who has not done his homework but for all the readers, because it gives them the keys to learn. They don't have to appeal to the argument from authority as you suggest here. Why should HEMA be different?
The only domain where I recognize the argument from authority is in the practical experience. If someone that has been training 20 years tells me "doing X works", I respect that, and I won't challenge this view unless I have the practical experience to back it up myself. But most of the discussion about HEMA is not of this kind, it's rather "master Y advises to do X". This can easily be backed up by quotes straight from the text. If someone else can pull other quotes from the text that contradict it, it's fair game to discuss. That's the point of a discussion forum.
The first time I've seen this appeal to authority as a way to cut valid discussion, I did not like it and I still don't. The solution chosen is often that the "authorities" step back from the discussions, leaving their followers bickering without any substance other than "my teacher says that". That's denying the fact that there is more to HEMA than practical experience.
M., I don't think the problem is centered on ARMA. I've seen bitter discussions elsewhere where ARMA was not a participant.
Regards,
Posts: 259 Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 3:29 am
I've had both good and bad experiences with HEMA groups. The bad ones were mainly internet-based, but not exclusively. I don't really feel like taking a stand on which attitudes are prevalent in the community as a whole, however I have something else to add:
Text-based communication is inefficient compared to verbal communication. In a verbal conversation, you can rely on body language and prosody to get the message across, and to interpret input. You can't do that in an online forum. When speaking face to face with someone, you also have to relate to that person in a completely different way, and people tend to be more humble and more willing to tone down their lust for winning an argument.
Text-based communication is tricky because the writer can attempt to come across in one way, while the reader might interpret the message in a completely different way. And unfortunately, messages are often interpreted negatively. While this situation would be easily solved in a verbal conversation, it often takes a whole load of posts on a forum for someone to figure out they have been talking past eachother for some time. It often boils down to styles of expression. For an example, I know a lot of people who keep their posts "short and strict" in order for them to be easy to read, and they often experience that these posts are interpreted as arrogant or angry, simply because they didn't add that extra smiley at the end.
I'm not saying that the nature of text-based communication is the only reason for the problems mentioned by Chad, but I am saying that it is a contributing factor. Personally, I have often found people to be much more pleasant in real life than on a forum.
Johan Schubert Moen
Posts: 156 Location: Evanston, IL
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 4:37 am
Quick thoughts on the 'HEMA community problem' aspect that Chad brought up:
The HEMA community is one with no governing body, no centralized organization. It is a set of usually disparate groups, with different 'attitudes', etc. 'The Community' can't in general solve a problem any other way than randomly achieved consensus because of this. Yes, some groups have certain recognition of others with varying levels of formality, but this is generally not visible online.
So 'the community addressing the problem' requires a few things: 1) each and every group realizing there is a problem and 2) each group fixing it. Thing is, most groups do #2 pretty well - because they don't want to come off as a bunch of jerks for the very reason you point out. But we tend to remember the extremes more easily, and so when not all groups are a bunch of nice guys online - we remember the jerks.
Also - Do you know which HES group I am a member of ? I would guess most don't. I think it largely irrelevant to most discussions. I am not a formal representative of my organization, thus my opinions are my own. To not reflect poorly on my organization as an informal representative, I try to not be a jerk and my fellow students tend to do the same. Why? Because I don't want to come off that way and becasue our head instructor (and our group) formally asks us to not be jerks online or otherwise. However, this doesn't mean I simply nod and agree with what everyone says - I just try to carry on a civil discourse, regardless of how others respond. The academic aspects of HEMA do not allow for just patting little-johnny-interpreter on the head - because otherwise folks will get the mistaken impression that there are no wrong answers and would detract from any rigor it may have had.
So really, while I know it is hard not to, try to not judge an entire community of possibly hundreds of groups with thousands of people involved based on the actions of a few dozen in a couple of forums. If there is a group near you, go check em out. You may be surprised, and hopefully it will be one without one of the online trolls, jerks, etc.
Posts: 9,557 Location: Dayton, OH
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 5:44 am
M. Eversberg II wrote: |
With ARMA, which seems to have caused the problem here, I get the impression that their head guy is...egocentric and very proud of what he does. I don't like this, and it rubs me the wrong way. I hope if I meet him in reality, I turn out to be wrong.
|
I'm not talking about any single group; I'm talking about multiple groups.
Posts: 9,557 Location: Dayton, OH
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 5:46 am
Patrick Kelly wrote: |
Chad and I had a great time interacting with each other in person and I found I liked him a lot. On the flip side of that coin, because of our personalities Chad and I always had a lot of friction between us when dealing with each other on-line. |
On a side note, I really enjoyed that time in Atlanta. I miss the fun we all had.
Posts: 333 Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 7:43 am
P. Cha wrote: |
I´m quite happy that the vast majority of the WMA people stay away from such childishness to ¨prove¨ things...although I have to say I do sadly see a lot of this from the ARMA crowd. |
ARMA is not out to "prove things". ARMA's primary goal is to recreate the lost historical European martial arts. ARMA is not a social club. With some exceptions we do not hang out togeather, bar hop togeather, visit, etc. Ernie Perez and I have run the DFW study group since 2001 and the only time I can recall that he was at my house was when he help me move in and he did that and more for Brian Price (Chivalry Bookshelf, Schola Saint George) when he move in down the road from me. The only thing ARMA members do as an organization is recreate the lost historical European martial arts. ARMA has never and will never let go of its primary goal in order to have a group hug with other groups. ARMA members are very friendly people but we don't do historical European martial arts for friendship.
M. Eversberg II wrote: |
With ARMA, which seems to have caused the problem here, I get the impression that their head guy is...egocentric and very proud of what he does. I don't like this, and it rubs me the wrong way. I hope if I meet him in reality, I turn out to be wrong. |
If you met John Clements you would find that he is very friendly. However, once the subject turns to martial arts you would find that he becomes very serious and intense. John has often said that he does not take himself serious but that he does take these arts very serious. In regard to martial arts John does not accommodate BS, interpretations must match the historical texts and they must work in heavy sparring and they must be better than other interpretations. John's seriousness about these lost arts has indeed rubbed many people wrong and that's ok. Again, John and ARMA cannot give up their primary goal just for the sake of a group hug.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
Posts: 9,557 Location: Dayton, OH
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 7:46 am
Ken Speed wrote: |
I can see that Chad would be hesitant to join any particular HEMA group because his position here would tend to give practitioners of that art another argument for their art being the best, "We must have the true and complete art because WE have Chad Arnow as member and the other guys don't."
|
Ken,
I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that's wildly overestimating my importance in the sword world (I don't see myself as an important cog in the wheel of any of this--at all). :)
Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 9:09 am
Chad Arnow wrote: |
On a side note, I really enjoyed that time in Atlanta. I miss the fun we all had. |
So do I. That was one of those golden moments in life that sticks with you forever. It isn't often that I can get together with people I connect with so well and share a common passion with, it was really cool.
[ Linked Image ]
Posts: 552 Location: San Jose, CA
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 10:11 am
Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: |
I think that's part of the activity. It's not like the bickering is restricted to HEMA, it happens in nearly all martial activity that I know about. I know it sounds a bit desperating, but there are things that make the martial arts stand appart from music (as far as I know about music, feel free to correct me ;) ).
First of all the masters themselves were constantly criticizing one another, the schools were competing with each other. How long do you think it would have taken before George Silver would have been banned from myArmoury :) ? Basically they were all convinced that they had the truth of it and were calling the others liars, since they were selling something different from the true Art, and therefore were cheating their students. There is no such strife among musicians that I know of.
The activity itself is also inherently combative. A martial artist becomes better by training hard to overcome others. He must question everything he sees and ask himself "how can I take advantage of someone that does that?". I guess you can think of it as an overblown critical thinking. I believe this is necessary; people that just imitate without questioning what they do tend to stall in martial arts (even in traditionnal ones). Of course, the leaders are the one that got better and this trait is more pronounced in them. All the more so since they also have to teach others.
The one thing that prevents that tendency to criticism is respect. Respect is gained mainly through practice together, and that's why you tend to see "polite" communities grouped around events (WMAW/ARMA events/European gatherings...) or around the material they use (shinai/steel/wood/plastic...) or around their focus (longsword/rapier/grappling...). As soon as you get isolated communities that cannot communicate through common practice, you'll get some bickering because only the critical eye is left. Since the HEMA community is still relatively sparse, this effect can be important.
Another trait that is somewhat selected in those that undertake HEMA is the tendency to go against the grain. There are still many preconceptions around about how people fought, and it takes a good level of self-confidence to go against these popular notions and fight them. This tends to give birth to pretty polarizing personnalities, I think.
With all that said, the level of proficiency and understanding is steadily increasing. I don't mind a little friction and heat as long as it is profitable over the long run.
Regards, |
Sorry to say this...but you haven't been around many muscians (I mean that as a joke though since I really don't know if you have or not). ;-)
Muscians argue a lot about music. West Coast versus East Coast Jazz, true country music versus pop country music, pop songs versus rock songs, what is meaningful heavy metal and what is popular tripe...I have heard and shared in a lot of human arguments over music.
Bascially if you get two people in the same place, they're bound to argue over something that they don't agree on. Heck I have all kinds of arguments with my wife over what to watch on TV, Reality shows (her favorite) or dramas (mine). ;-)
Posts: 871 Location: Paris, France
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 10:23 am
Bryce Felperin wrote: |
Sorry to say this...but you haven't been around many muscians (I mean that as a joke though since I really don't know if you have or not). ;-) |
Actually your joke is close enough to the truth :) Well I have family members that have done a lot of music but I never quite got into it myself.
So yeah, that's probably an issue with human nature as well...
Posts: 409 Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 10:34 am
Hmmm...
When it come to "popular music" , wasn't there just a big blow up a few years ago between East Coast Rappers & West Coast Rappers? I remember a bunch of trash talk followed by a couple of popular artists being gunned down. :wtf:
With that in mind, I just don't remember the Beatles and the Stones ever exchanging rounds...
Posts: 12 Location: Alexandria, VA
Mon 05 Oct, 2009 10:49 am
Amen, Bryce (and Christian).
I am a musician operating in many different circles (and at the semi-professional level, at that), and I've never met a musical community that was not to some extent mired in competing camps, arguments, jealousies, hair-pulling and downright pettiness. Chad, you must be one lucky guy in that regard.
Just put two sopranos in a room, and see the atmosphere explode from estrogen-induced electric storms. (OK, this was partly a joke, so if you are or know a soprano, don't take it to heart.)
Seriously, though. An artistic community is an artistic community. Just for a laugh, spend a few minutes on Photo.net and see the kind of "civility" that goes on there, an unmoderated forum that includes pros, semi-pros, amateurs and wannabes alike.
Chad, all I can add to this conversation is this. By being interested in swordsmanship and not joining a group, you may be only limiting yourself. I know most US-based groups--and some European-based ones, and I can tell you that I would be so much the poorer by not being part of this community through my group (the Order of the Seven Hearts) and by being closely associated with others (CSG, Academia della Spada, Company of St. Jude, etc.). I know it because I had somewhat isolated myself for a year or so for the same reasons, and I simply didn't grow in the meantime as much as I could have.
Mostly, if you dislike politics, it's up to you to stay out of them. It's OK to have your personal preferences and strong convictions while not getting involved in diatribes on a personal level; and that goes for groups too, as well as for individuals.
And one last thing. Situations don't always spontaneously combust, the "atmosphere" being at fault. The bulls in a china-shop, cult-leaders, power-grabbers and the "been at it for a month, let me tell you how it's done" types are more prone to occasionally get a tongue-lashing than someone who just trains and minds his own business--in this case, the "community" is less to blame than the individuals who went out on a limb. And many times that tongue-lashing is not only deserved, but understated and diplomatically-worded.
Take a gander at eBudo.com and see, for instance, how frauds are treated there. Overall, I'd say that in comparison the WMA community is quite mild.
To be in a community of thousands of individuals, where many want to be "the guy" for this or that author or style, with no universally-agreed-upon standards (thank God or thank the Devil, depending on who you ask) and with occasionally the loudest barking voice being the most acknowledged, all this is to be expected. But the benefits, in my opinion, far outweigh this--small, in my opinion, and often overstated--drawback.
Tom
Last edited by Tom Leoni on Mon 05 Oct, 2009 11:01 am; edited 3 times in total
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