I'm looking for information, particularly pictorial representations and source info, on long-bladed rondel daggers extending past an 18" blade length. I'm intrigued by sword-length rondel daggers that have blades extending 24" or more.

What examples exist in museums? Where are they?

Who carried these long examples and in what role were they used?

When were they used? Was there a period of time where they were more common than other periods?

What depictions in art are there of these very long-bladed rondel daggers?

And one specific question: Where rondel daggers, long or otherwise, commonly used by archers?

Thank you.

Well, I can only give you a partial answer, but they were definately seen in 15th century fencing manuscripts. Codex Wallerstein shows some rather large daggers, including some "half-sword" techniques with them, which certainly makes more sense with a larger blade than a shorter one.

Hi Bill

please bear in mind that proportions in CW are not exactly accurate :)

Nathan, there is a quite long (though probably not 18" or more) roundel dagger in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris. I'm going there tomorrow, I'llt ry to get you a picture of it.

I also know an early XVIth century illustration depicting a very long roundel dagger : http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElementNum...mp;Param=C (the link might not work)
It's from ms. Fr. 599 at the Bibliothèque nationale de France, Folio : 63v, the vengeance of Chiomara, from Boccace, de mulieribus claris

Still used as a regular dagger, though.

Cheers

Fab

Hello all!

Nathan,
J.H. Hefner-Alteneck shows a drawing of what may be considered a "sword-sized" rondel dagger in a plate labelled "Daggers and Swords 1460-1500" in his Medieval Arms and Armor: A Pictorial Archive. Unfortunately, he doesn't give dimensions or even list a source, but he shows it alongside a couple of more modestly-sized daggers. It's blade is certainly long compared to the grip.

The grip of this "sword-dagger" has a rudimentary rondel as a guard, and only a "cap" for a pommel. He drew the blade in the same way that he drew a three-sided dagger blade, but he doesn't specify if this larger object was three-sided as well (the shading is different from that of the two-sided dagger shown on the same plate). The author stated that this weapon played a large role in the knight's arsenal, and was used more in skirmishes than battles. He stated that the simple grip (which appears cylindrical in the drawing) is about an eighth of the blade. If the grip was 4 inches, that would make the blade roughly 32 inches! He also stated that the weapon was worn perpendicular to the body at the front, but sometimes at the right side.

I've seen sword-sized (or almost sword-sized) baselard daggers worn perpendicular in the front in English brasses. They can be found on the brasses of wealthy civilians. One is on the brass of John Fortey, 1458, in Northleach. Fortey wears his large baselard hanging from the centre of his belt. Another is on the brass of an unknown civilian of circa 1370 in Shottesbroke (here the large dagger or small sword is worn slightly offset to the left). These aren't rondels, but they can give you an idea of how large rondels may have been worn. (Both are seen in Henry Trivick's The Picture Book of Brasses in Gilt.)

I hoped this helped! I'll dig around a bit more and see what I can come up with!

Stay safe!

Bill, I owned Eric's rondel for a while and passed it on to Nathan. What he told me if I rememeber correctly was that the blade was based on one in the Museum of London that Peter had done drawings of and that Peter had examined rondel specimines(sp) nearly as long as a sword. Maybe Eric can flesh this out more.

Thanks for the responses so far. I'm hoping more will chime in with additional details.

One question that might have been missed by many is:

Where rondel daggers, long or otherwise, commonly used by archers?

Nathan, that is something Eric mentioned as his idea for the rondel you have now.

Here is a nice illustration. The text says

Quote:

Another extract from the same scene as the besiegers and crossbowmen. These archers wear brigandines, with the rivets clearly visible, mail shirts and Italian-style sallets. One has no armour on his legs, a common trend at this time, while the other two have varying degrees of protection on their legs. I believe the archer to the rear to be rather anachronistic, as he has arms and legs fully encased in plate, which is most unlikely for an archer, if only for practicality in shooting. None of the archers wear bracers. They all have their arrows on the side of the bow that is the same as the hand they hold it with, as with most western archers. Two are right-handed, one left. As was the norm, their arrows are kept either stuffed through the belt or placed on/into the ground (we hear of this at Agincourt). The archer to the right has a standard arming sword, worn in a normal way, while the man on the left has what could be a large baselard. These short swords were usually worn hung in the middle of the belt, either at the back or on the front, in front of the groin.

I think the long dagger looks very much like a rondel (and not so much a baselard).

Gordon

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Yep, definitely a roundel.

Though the sallets would better be qualified as French.