Tianhong Yu wrote: |
Hello Carlos. Did those pavisers you mentioned carry adargas?From what I hear Spanish swordsmen carried adarga before rodela. Do you think it's true? |
I am not keen on spanish panoply before late XVth century - 1490's and onwards - but I try to revise some books that I have to answer you properly.
By the late XVth and first XVIth, the adarga was used by spanish jinetes - light cavalry that adopted the moorish style of riding and fightin on horse.
To pavisers:
According to Alonso de Quintanilla report to the kings [1495] pavisers have to carry pavés, coraza and lanza - pavise, cuirasse and lance. The report was previous to the royal ordinance of 1495 that determined the following equipment:
Cuirass, helmet - caxquete - sword and dagger, long lance or common lance and medio pavés [half pavise] or escudo de Pontevedra o de Oviedo [Pontevedra's buclker or Oviedo's buckler. two provinces of Galicia and Asturias, northwestern Spain].
This long lance could be a 24 'palmos' lance [24 x 20.8cm = 4.99m] because this was the equipment of 200 men from the province of Jaén in the 1495 apercibimiento.
We know that a pavés cost in 1495 78 maravedíes, and a half-pavise of 1500, only 31, a common pavise [1496] 60 maravedíes, and a pavés de la montaña - mountain pavés - 100 [in 1496]
According to the 1495 apercibimiento - a national muster - from Galicia, León, Ponferrada and Asturias, had to be recruited 4.200 'peones a la gallega' - infantrymen to the galician way. The total of Spain was 18.560 infantrymen and we could see regional diferences:
The 'galician infantrymen' were equipped with:
casquetes gallegos, espada, lanza terciada con hierro largo y sus paveses de Pontevedra.
galician helmet, sword, terciada lance with long spearhed, and pavises from Pontevedra.
I am not sure what a 'lanza terciada' was, but terciada it could be the third part, so a lance which had the third of the lenght of a common lance.
In 1503, a group of this galician and asturian soldiers were imbarked to Sicily and they fought against french, so we have at least two forreign accounts of them. I'll recover them later.
Bibliography: La revolución militar moderna. El crisol español. René Quatrefages
Ejércitos y armadas de los Reyes Católicos. Miguel Ángel Ladero Quesada.
ADDED IN EDITION:
Reading some documents there is no evidence for infantrymen carrying 'adargas' instead of pavises, but, as I said before, I am not keen in pre 1490s spanish armies.
In the link you post before there is this statement:
Quote: | I am not an expert on Conquistadors but I want to make mention of the "Adarga" shield. I have some documentation stating that most of the Soldiers eventually found that the steel Rondella shields were too heavy in the tropics and also were quite unnecessary ( as a matter of over-kill ) in regard to defence against Indian darts and arrows, etc. |
If your read Cortés relations, [url]https://archive.org/details/cartasyrelacion01cortgoog Cartas y relaciones de Hernán Cortés al emperador Carlos V[/url] you can read the muster taken in 28 april of 1521:
E acabados los bergantines y puestos en esta zanja, á 28 de abril del dicho año fice alarde de toda la gente , y hallé ochenta y seis de caballo , y ciento y diez y ocho ballesteros y escopeteros , y setecientos y tantos peones de espadas y rodela, y tres tiros gruesos de hierro , y quince tiros pequeños de bronce , y diez quintales de pólvora.
86 cavalrymen
118 crossbowmen and gunners - escopeteros
more than 700 peones - infantrymen - with swords and rodelas
Cortés himself made another statement:
Yo envió á la isla Española cuatro navios para que luego vuelvan cargados de caballos y gente para nuestro socorro; é asimismo envió á comprar otros cuatro para que desde la dicha isla Española y ciudad de Santo Domingo traigan caballos y armas y ballestas y pólvora, porque esto es los que en estas partes es mas necesaria ; porque peones rodeleros aprovechan muy poco solos, por ser tanta cantidad de gente y tener tan fuertes y grandes ciudades y fortalezas
He send 4 vessels to La Española - current Haití + Dominican Republic - to get horses and men, arms, crossbows and powder, because the 'peones rodeleros' - infantry rodeleros - were of little service alone, without - I deduce - the help of horsemen and crossbowmen.
To the Magallanes expedition [1518] they took for the army:
1000 lances and 200 pikes
95 dozens of darts
10 dozens of 'gorguces' or 'gurguces' - somekind of dart or spear
50 escopetas
60 crossbows with 60 dozens of arrows
100 corselets + brazal [to protect the arm] + espaldera [the shoulder] + cabasset
100 breastplate with 'barbote' - somekind of gorget which protect the neck until the chin and 'casquete' - helmet
200 rodelas
[Source: Colección de los viajes y descubrimientos que hicieron por mar los españoles v4]
There were no adargas at all, but this doesn't mean that spaniard didn't used it like infantry shields. What it's true regardin protection is that spaniards with time found no need to wear corselets, but they still used rodelas, as que can see in Vargas Machuca's work.
ADDED IN SECOND EDITION:
I have seen another account [CoDoIn Archivo de Indias, v34] with the arms sent to La Española in 1511:
300 tablachinas - somekind of shield like the light hungarian horsemen wore in the batlle of Orsha
200 medios paveses - hald pavises
100 adargas cordobesas - cordovan adargas
And no rodelas at all, but in 1515 they asked for 300 rodelas from Spain.
Regarding to the use of shields before the adoption or the rodela in late 1490s / first 1500s, spanish infantrymen tend to use pavises during all XVth century, even if they were fighting embarked: 67 paveses grandes para luchar en tierra and 133 paveses pequeños para pelear en las naves: 67 big pavises to fight on land, and 133 little pavises to fight in the boats [Source: La Armada de Vizcaya 1492-1493 - nuevos datos documentales].
During the catalan civil war [1462-1472] the rebels who fought the king wanted to recruit 3000 soldiers: 1800 crossbowmen, 800 pavisers, 200 long lances and 100 spingardes - XVth century gun. [Source: CoDoIn, Archivo Corona Aragón v14. Guerra civil catalana]
Quote: |
Here I find an interesting post http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=119...mp;start=0
where Leonardo said there were no rodeleros as a dedicated type of foot soldiers.
It seems he wasn't the first one who held this opinion
[url]http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2096&hilit=rodeleros&sid=8862aff64ad76f0ab175111253df4d28[/url]
What do you think? |
Before posting, I have to say that I have only browsed the two post you linked. I try to read them with calm later.
As I said before, there were no rodeleros at all in any muster or official account, as there were no such category of infantry soldiers in those years [in Europe], and the rodela was no part of the standard panoply of spaniards in european lands, neither the alabarda, the media pica - half pike - the partesana, the chuzo - somekind of spear - the jineta - another spear - the espontón - another spear - the corcesca - another spear - and so on, but they were used, and they were part of the "munición" - literally ammunition - the equipment/arms provided by the king, and paid by the soldier discounted from their wages and the "armas de respeto", the arms that were in charge of the captain of the artillery to supply to soldiers - and sailors - during the campagins, to substitute their lost or broken arms, or to change: to transform arcabuceros into coseletes, like happened in 1546-1547 german Charles V campaign.
If you read documents from the Comunidades in 1520's - CoDoIn 1, p277 - you will see that the rebels, following the model of the Catholics kings Isabel & Fernando, wanted to stablish the obligation to wear arms in order to form a militia to all man according their wealth and status. And the common arms to all were the sword, the dagger and the rodela:
Lo otro á condición que todos puedan traer las armas que quisieren ofensivas é defensivas , é que ninguna justicia gelas pueda tomar ni vedar que no las trayan, é que todos sean obligados á tener armas en esta manera : que cada un vecino de los del menor estado sea obligado á tener una espada , é un puñal , é un casquete , é una lanza é un pavés ó una rodela : entiéndase ser del menor estado el que no tiene cinquenta mil maravedís de hacienda. E los del mediano estado que sean obligados á tener cada uno una espada , é un puñal , é un casquete, é una pica é un coselete ó unas corazas é una rodela : entiéndese ser del mediano estado el que tuviere mas de cinquenta mil maravedís de hacienda é no pasare de doscientos mil. ... (1) Y los del mayor estado que sean obligados á tener cada uno dos espadas é dos puñales par asir á un mozo^ é una pica, é una alabarda, é una rodela é un coselete entero con su celada y gorjal é falda : entiéndese ser del mayor estado el que tuviere de hacienda mas de doscientos mil maravedís : é por questo se guarde mejor , que los alcaldes é regidores de cada un logar hagan hacer cada un año el día de Santiago alarde á todos los vecinos , é que cada un vecino salga á la alarde con sus armas , é quel que no las sacare todas, que pague de pena si fuere del menor estado trescientos maravedís, é si del mediano seiscientos, é si del mayor mil maravedís, é questa pena gela esecuten luego é no gela puedan perdonar é sea para á los muros del logar, é que demás desto los alcaldes é regidores les compren las armas que les faltaren é gelas den é gelas hagan.
Arms and equipment for men according their wealth:
Less than 50.000 maravedíes: Sword, dagger, helmet, lance, pavise and rodela
Between 50.000 and 200.000 mvds: Sword, dagger, helmet, pike, corselet or cuirasse, and rodela
More than 200.000 mvds: Two swords, tow daggers - with a servant - one pike, one halberd, one rodela, one complet corselet with salad, gorget and skirt [I am sure the name of the piece of the armour in english is not a skirt]
According to Fernando, there were no rodeleros. I assume that he was referring to América.
If you read Colección de Documentos Inéditos para la Historia de Chile, you will see that in an "información" - a document with witnesses to support some evidence, usually to defend from justice, or prevent some accusations or to accuse someone - Alvarado had in 1531, 120 men in horse, and 100 infantry men 'ballesteros, escopeteros y rodeleros'. If you read the chronicles of Oviedo, describing the troops of the Captains Hojeda and Nicuesa in Cartagena [current Colombia] they had 300 men: 150 rodeleros, 60 crossbowmen, 40 with corselets and pikes and 40 empavesados - pavisers. They sum 290, not 300, but even if Oviedo wasn't good at maths, we can watch the proportion in the different type of arms, with no escopetas or arquebuses at all.
According to the relación of Ordoñez, Francisco Pizarro had in Lima - during the civil wars of Peru between him and Almagro - 350 men in horses, 200 arquebusiers and crossbowmen and 150 pikemen and rodeleros, and in Lima were producing 2 arquebuses per day.
Of course, you have also the Vargas Machuca's treaty, talking about rodeleros, their equipment and their tactics, but it's from 1599 and they were fighting against indians. However, there is an interesant statement:
Y si el enemigo fuere de lanza, los rodeleros sean lanceros, para mejor entretener, porque la rodela es inferior á la lanza del contrario.
If the enemy had lances, the rodeleros were lancers, to better fight, because the rodela is lower that the lance of the opponent.
https://archive.org/details/miliciaydescripc00vargiala
If you read documents of american or asian expeditions, or inventories in american fortesess, you will see there are a lot of rodelas in the 1510s, 1520s years, but not in columbian expeditions, so we can assume that the statement of Oviedo that twere were no rodelas in Spain before late 1490s had to be true. In fact, in 1512, they supposed that the better rodelas in the world were produced in Naples, but they were manufactured in Vizvaya - Basque country - too, so we can assume that the biscain rodelas were copied by the basque armourers from their counterpart from Italy. |