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Posts: 337

Thu 09 Jun, 2005 7:51 pm

Celtic daggers and knives

Does anyone know if there has been any replica Hallstatt daggers made? See attached picture.

If so are they available to purchase? Does anyone have any pictures?

Are there any other Celtic daggers or knives, perhaps from the La Tène period or other periods? Doing a quick search online only brings up Hallstatt daggers. The Celts must have used daggers and knives in other periods also.

Anyone have any pictures they are willing to share. I would especially love to see large colour pictures of the 3 daggers I have posted plus any others.

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Folkert van Wijk

Posts: 206 Location: The Netherlands

Fri 10 Jun, 2005 1:52 am

Celtic knives

Hi Danny

I don't know about the Hallstatt types, I havened founded them yet .

But here are a couple of links
http://www.hr-replikate.de/englisch/index.html
This one is surely acurate because the guy who makes these is an archaeologist himself.

http://www.celtic-smith.cz/english/smithy.htm
This one looks to me as a mixture of Celtic inspirations and some fantasie

If i can think of something more, i'll let you know.
And if you do find something, please let me know.

Folkert

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Fri 10 Jun, 2005 2:02 am

Noricum Replikate has them available, though it doesn't come cheap:
http://www.noricum.de/html/replikate.html

You could of course have one custom made as well.

Here's some other pictures I've got of Hallstatt/La Tene daggers and knives:

Dagger, ?, ?:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/tgrb/leger_museum_de...140024.jpg

Dagger, 500BC, Haps, Netherlands:
http://1500bc.com/rijks_museum_oudheden/0214173.JPG

Knife, 800-500BC, Oss, Netherlands:
http://1500bc.com/rijks_museum_oudheden/0214169g.JPG

Dagger, 700-600BC, UK
http://1500bc.com/british_museum/06270130.JPG

Dagger, 600-550BC, Cookham, Surrey, UK
http://1500bc.com/british_museum/06270053.JPG

Knife, 500-300BC, Prosnes, France?:
http://1500bc.com/british_museum/07170121.jpg

Dagger, ? (Hallstatt), UK?:
http://1500bc.com/british_museum/07170228.jpg

Knives, ? (La Tene), UK?:
http://1500bc.com/british_museum/07170252.jpg

Dagger, 650-550BC, Spain:
http://1500bc.com/british_museum/07170257.jpg

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Fri 10 Jun, 2005 2:21 am

Re: Celtic knives

Folkert van Wijk wrote:

Hi Danny

http://www.celtic-smith.cz/english/smithy.htm
This one looks to me as a mixture of Celtic inspirations and some fantasie

Folkert

Oh! That's the guy I got my knife from when he was at Archeon with the last Viking market. It's one of the "Celtic knives", but without leather wrap and with a spiral hilt ending. For only 26 euro, that was a really nice buy. None of that machine ground stuff, but a purely hand forged knife with only a bit of filing to finish the cutting edge. I've attached a picture of it. Thanks for finding his site :)

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Folkert van Wijk

Posts: 206 Location: The Netherlands

Fri 10 Jun, 2005 2:25 am

Graag gedaan

Graag gedaan! ;)

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Posts: 337

Sun 12 Jun, 2005 1:57 am

Thanks for the responses.

Does anyone know if the picture attached of Celtic long / war knives are accurate replicas or not?

They can be found at the following websites?

http://www.banfiarts.com/pages/cel_coltelli.html

http://drakkaria.com/drakkaria/index.php?id_druhu=9

Are there any other replica war knives out there?

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 2:37 am

I don't know iron age blades that much to judge their accuracy. However, the bronze swords on the second site are way off. The bird head knife does look quite nice though, and they do claim it's an accurate copy (though of course that doesn't say anything).

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Folkert van Wijk

Posts: 206 Location: The Netherlands

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 5:31 am

Celtic knife accuratie

To me only the left one lookes a bit accurate for something La Tene.

Bud thanks to this splendid (myArmoury) site and it's "inhabitants" I own now a couple of nice books with good Celtic info and graphics.

So I gues it's a good thing that I put them to use here also, and show you the images I can come up with.

And see for your self...

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Gaulisch

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Gaulisch

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Gaulisch

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Gaulisch

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messen gournay III 01.jpg

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Italy

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(pressent) Servia

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Gaulisch

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Folkert van Wijk

Posts: 206 Location: The Netherlands

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 5:41 am

Celtic Cutlery

Besides this images, I think it's also good to bare in mind that these kind of knifes where also found in Celtic burials together with a pease of mead on a plate.

So obviously they where intended fore cutlery, probably more then for fything... :\

Folkert

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Posts: 329

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 8:34 am

Re: Celtic Cutlery

Folkert van Wijk wrote:

Besides this images, I think it's also good to bare in mind that these kind of knifes where also found in Celtic burials together with a pease of mead on a plate.

So obviously they where intended fore cutlery, probably more then for fything... :\

Folkert

Folkert has many good points and illustartions. The pictures he shows point out the different shapes, but what might not be immediately obvious is that the shape of the knife differed with different time periods. So a curved Halstatt/La Tene I knife is going to look different from a La Tene III knife. Also, when I look closer, it's clear some had scale tang with rivets, some did not...not necessarily appropriate to make the knife scale tang with rivetted handle slabs for all shapes, and all time periods.....

The comment about the find details is *very* worth noting. These knives are usually not found in the grave in a way that indicates they are war knives at all, in the most common case. They are almost never placed "close to hand", like the swords, spears, javelins and shield fittings and other "war gear".

A final comment on current reproductions...so far what I have seen can look decent for shape for some time periods, but the finish is almost always very rough---they look like the original pieces do now, but in period, they were probably nice, smooth and shiny----in other words the smiths seem to reproduce an "excavated finish" for the blades. Easy enough to buy one as a project blade, and clean it all up, though ;)

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Tue 14 Jun, 2005 1:37 am

Re: Celtic Cutlery

Folkert van Wijk wrote:

Besides this images, I think it's also good to bare in mind that these kind of knifes where also found in Celtic burials together with a pease of mead on a plate.

So obviously they where intended fore cutlery, probably more then for fything... :\

Folkert

Thanks! That's what I expected is the case with the bronze urnfield knives as well. These are probably the direct forerunners of the iron age knives. It's interesting to see that in the early bronze age there were only daggers, which probably had the same function, though eventually were adapted for fighting as well. These daggers evolved into swords, loosing their original function. When that happened, you see the first bronze knives appearing. These knives often had round tips, so they probably weren't intended for fighting. Yet some of the later iron age knives again evolved into knives for warfare, like the falcata. And in the early medieval period, this is repeated again with seaxes. History just keeps repeating itself :)

What's worth noting though is that even in the iron age, flint flakes were still used in lots of areas as cutting tools. Knives were probably luxury items for the more wealthy.

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Tue 14 Jun, 2005 2:04 am

Re: Celtic Cutlery

Nathan Bell wrote:

A final comment on current reproductions...so far what I have seen can look decent for shape for some time periods, but the finish is almost always very rough---they look like the original pieces do now, but in period, they were probably nice, smooth and shiny----in other words the smiths seem to reproduce an "excavated finish" for the blades. Easy enough to buy one as a project blade, and clean it all up, though ;)

Naw, they're just raw forged blades, with the grinding left away. I personally prefer that over something that's been ground to a mirror finish on a modern grinder. At least it gives the option to grind it using authentic means. But personally, I'm quite fond of this raw look, as it shows all the fabrication marks which give them character. I do expect they'd have ground the originals though, actually I'm pretty certain they did. While to me this raw look gives it character, back then it probably would have been considered poorly finished. Plus giving it a smooth finish back then was a lot of work, while nowadays it comes over as laziness, because we can achieve that sort of finish with very little effort using machinery. So while nowadays it's the imperfections due to authentic fabrication that makes these things more appealing, back then it was the high quality finish that made it more appealing. That's a bit of a problem I have with my reproductions as well. I want to finish them as nice and smooth as the originals. This takes a huge amount of work doing it authentic, with as result something that looks so smooth and sharp that nobody's going to believe I didn't use any modern grinding tools. Yet if I really do have to do it authentic, I do have to remove all the fabrication traces like they did back then. But at least I do have a camera, so I can take pictures of the various stages ;)

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Posts: 329

Tue 14 Jun, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Celtic Cutlery

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:

Naw, they're just raw forged blades, with the grinding left away. I personally prefer that over something that's been ground to a mirror finish on a modern grinder. At least it gives the option to grind it using authentic means.

I can see where many prefer it left raw forged to allow the option to finish traditionally. I respect that very much :)

I guess my point though is that these were not left raw forged, evrything cutlery wise seems to have been ground and polished in period, and some of the razors, swords and knives retain quite a nice finish, where preserved by submersion or an anoxic environment. It would no have been left completely raw-forged in period, I believe.

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Posts: 506 Location: South Bend, IN

Tue 14 Jun, 2005 7:39 am

Getting to this one a bit late, but oh well.

A good range of knives has been covered here and at this point it is probably best to try to look at them more independately to be studied indepth.

In the grouping of modern produced examples, I have always wondered about the source for the middle bird headed knife. Hard to tell size from the pics, but the two on the right it larger might even be attempts at a machaira, falcata, or kopis.

Everyone has their own taste, but I just find it hard to do the rough look with the la tene objects. So much time with finishing and the artistry went into their objects that it just seems almost hard to see things that don't have the same level as being la tene. Of all things, the woodworking seems to get me the most though. You don't need all the modern equipment and sand papers to get a good finish on wood, all it really takes is a simple wood scraper. All those even are is a piece of sheet metal with a bur on the edge.

Shane

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Folkert van Wijk

Posts: 206 Location: The Netherlands

Tue 14 Jun, 2005 12:04 pm

Woodworking tools...

Shane Allee wrote:

You don't need all the modern equipment and sand papers to get a good finish on wood, all it really takes is a simple wood scraper. All those even are is a piece of sheet metal with a bur on the edge.

wood scraper? you mean a file, a rasp...

I am afraid one needs quiet some woodworking experience to achieve something with that little a tools.
At least I do, I need all the tools I can get!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I ques that means I need 1, a good teacher 2, more time and patience or 3, ...........

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Posts: 506 Location: South Bend, IN

Tue 14 Jun, 2005 3:08 pm

Ok, where is a link to what I'm talking about.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=H5568

I never dreamed how useful something so simple could be, but they are literally pieces of sheet metal with a slight bur. It takes off shavings much like a wood plane, but much thinner. They are flexible which helps with curves. Just great for scabbards, works great to do the last 10% or so of shaping.

A good teacher is always helpful, I worked for several months with Mark Grzybowski now of http://www.ollinsworddesign.com/, and he helped me so much with my wood working. He can really do magic with a piece of wood, well and steel, wax, styrofoam, and about any other medium he goes after.

Shane

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Posts: 337

Tue 14 Jun, 2005 4:56 pm

Nathan

Going back to my original post and the picture of the 3 Hallstatt daggers, have you come across any other daggers from other periods (La Tène etc), which are as impressive in relation to the hilt design and ornamentation?

If not has there been any discussion by experts or others as to why the Hallstatt period appears to have such impressive examples of daggers while other periods do not?

Lastly I don't suppose you have any pictures of Celtic daggers including some nice colour pics of the 3 Hallstatt daggers?

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Jeroen Zuiderwijk

Posts: 740 Location: Netherlands

Wed 15 Jun, 2005 12:43 am

Shane Allee wrote:

Getting to this one a bit late, but oh well.
Everyone has their own taste, but I just find it hard to do the rough look with the la tene objects. So much time with finishing and the artistry went into their objects that it just seems almost hard to see things that don't have the same level as being la tene.

Agreed. I don't see these raw blades as historical reproductions though, just as cool knives to have and use. I just find them a lot cooler then plastic hilted knives you get at the supermarket :)

Shane Allee wrote:

Of all things, the woodworking seems to get me the most though. You don't need all the modern equipment and sand papers to get a good finish on wood, all it really takes is a simple wood scraper. All those even are is a piece of sheet metal with a bur on the edge

Thanks! I recognize similar bronze age tools. There's various examples of thin sheets with sharpened edges, which I expected might have been used for wood working. Even in the bronze age, some very delicately finished wooden/bone etc. hilts were made. If they could do it back then, with the simple tools they had available, they definately could in later periods with better and more specialized tools. Of course that doesn't guarantee that they always did though.

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Folkert van Wijk

Posts: 206 Location: The Netherlands

Wed 15 Jun, 2005 4:11 am

Take a look here.

This is an interresting site.

http://216.71.131.59/celtic.html

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Posts: 266

Wed 15 Jun, 2005 6:54 am

Re: Take a look here.

Folkert van Wijk wrote:

This is an interresting site.
http://216.71.131.59/celtic.html

€80 for a spear? Is this for real?

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