To give you an example of what I mean Gabriele, in 1569 Turlough Luineach O Neill married Agnes Campbell, daughter of the Earl of Argyll. Her dowry was 1200 "gallowglass". Do you think that all of these men were what we would think of as gallowglass? I doubt it. I think that at most 400 of these men were armoured axemen or swordsmen. The rest most likely being archers.
i understand your point Stephen, but our view of the word "gallowglass" is different,
of course if we give the word, the connotation that you give to it, we have a group of armed man with their roots in the western isles military tradition, but that could include both heavy and light infantry,
in my view, the word gallowglass identify a foot warrior clad in mail and armed with a two handed axe alone, i have to admit that i'm influenced by the accounts of the contemporary english writers, and i do not have a deep knowledge of the gaelic sources, so i can't tell for sure how they regard themselves,
when i think to the XVIth century irish army, i'm accustomed to have it divided in pretty rigid categories: noble cavalry, kerns and gallowglass, with the occasional addition of redshanks mercenaries
all the said categories are characteristics in their own and pretty recognizeable.
and from what i have always understood this system prevailed until the O'Neill reform in the last phase of the war
probably it is a too semplicistic view....
a side note: i know that a group of italian mercenaries fought in ireland in the last phase of the war, i have been able to find just some brief notes, but if i remeber well they were massacred by the english troops after their surrender. do you know something about them?
it was intriguing for me to know that a number of my fellow countryman has fought on the irish side,
of course if we give the word, the connotation that you give to it, we have a group of armed man with their roots in the western isles military tradition, but that could include both heavy and light infantry,
in my view, the word gallowglass identify a foot warrior clad in mail and armed with a two handed axe alone, i have to admit that i'm influenced by the accounts of the contemporary english writers, and i do not have a deep knowledge of the gaelic sources, so i can't tell for sure how they regard themselves,
when i think to the XVIth century irish army, i'm accustomed to have it divided in pretty rigid categories: noble cavalry, kerns and gallowglass, with the occasional addition of redshanks mercenaries
all the said categories are characteristics in their own and pretty recognizeable.
and from what i have always understood this system prevailed until the O'Neill reform in the last phase of the war
probably it is a too semplicistic view....
a side note: i know that a group of italian mercenaries fought in ireland in the last phase of the war, i have been able to find just some brief notes, but if i remeber well they were massacred by the english troops after their surrender. do you know something about them?
it was intriguing for me to know that a number of my fellow countryman has fought on the irish side,
I'm sorry Gabriele. It was wrong of me to get us so off topic and confuse the subject. So for the sake of clarity, I'm not saying that we should do away with the concept of gallowglass as heavy infantry, and kern as light infantry, as this simple classification is useful. I'll just to add one last thing on this subject, and then I'll leave it alone.
The qualities and values that you place on the title of gallowglass, did exist in the minds of medieval Gaels. But they would have attributed these qualities and values to the gentleman of certain clans, such as; MacSweeney, MacDonnell, MacSheehy, McCabe etc. As all of these particular clans were granted land and settled down in Ireland, it was understood that if, let's say, The O Neill summoned 3 battalions of MacDonnell gallowglass, they would all be armoured men. But if The O Neill hired 3 battalions of MacDonald (kin to MacDonnells from the isles) gallowglass, then perhaps they might be 3 battalions of armoured men, or perhaps they would be one armoured battalion and two unarmoured.
Using the above example both the MacDonnells and MacDonalds would be considered gallowglass. The Difference is that the MacDonalds had lands of there own, and so could call on the intire male population of their lands for service, and so had access to both heavy and light infantry. Whereas the MacDonnells were O Neills vassals, and so only had control of their own kin, who were all heavy infantry.
Anyway hopefully this topic will go back to discussing battle tactics. I'm notorious for derailing my own threads. If I do find anything on Italian mercenaries serving in Ireland Gabriele I'll be sure to let you know.
The qualities and values that you place on the title of gallowglass, did exist in the minds of medieval Gaels. But they would have attributed these qualities and values to the gentleman of certain clans, such as; MacSweeney, MacDonnell, MacSheehy, McCabe etc. As all of these particular clans were granted land and settled down in Ireland, it was understood that if, let's say, The O Neill summoned 3 battalions of MacDonnell gallowglass, they would all be armoured men. But if The O Neill hired 3 battalions of MacDonald (kin to MacDonnells from the isles) gallowglass, then perhaps they might be 3 battalions of armoured men, or perhaps they would be one armoured battalion and two unarmoured.
Using the above example both the MacDonnells and MacDonalds would be considered gallowglass. The Difference is that the MacDonalds had lands of there own, and so could call on the intire male population of their lands for service, and so had access to both heavy and light infantry. Whereas the MacDonnells were O Neills vassals, and so only had control of their own kin, who were all heavy infantry.
Anyway hopefully this topic will go back to discussing battle tactics. I'm notorious for derailing my own threads. If I do find anything on Italian mercenaries serving in Ireland Gabriele I'll be sure to let you know.
Not to go too far off topic, but, from the Annals of the Four Masters for the year 1580:
M1580.23
An Italian fleet of the Pope's people landed in Kerry in the September of this year. Their name was greater than their importance, for their fame was at first so great that, had they come to Limerick, Galway, or Cork, these great towns would have been left wide open to them. The place where they landed was an island which James, the son of Maurice, had attempted to fortify the year before, namely, Dun-an-oir. This fleet was induced to come to Ireland to assist the Geraldines when they had heard that the Geraldines were reduced to great extremities in defending the Catholic faith. The Earl of Ormond, i.e. Thomas, the son of James, son of Pierce Roe, mustered an army in behalf of himself and of his sovereign, to proceed to Dun-an-oir against the Italians ; and he did not halt until he arrived in Kerry. The fine army of the Geraldines were there to meet him, but neither party made any attack upon the other; however, the passage was left open for the Earl until he arrived on the hill over the fort, from which, having reconnoitred the deep trenches and impregnable ramparts which the Italians had constructed around the island, he considered in his mind that it would be useless for him to offer them battle in their present fortified position. He, therefore, returned by the same route, and in Hy-Connell-Gaura met the Lord Justice, who would not be dissuaded by the Earl from proceeding to see Dun-an-oir. He proceeded by regular marches through Clanmaurice and Kerry, until he arrived in the vicinity of the island. He did not, however, bring his camp near it. Chosen parties of his army went daily to reconnoitre the island. Many communications mutually took place on both sides; and a promise of protection was made to them. The Italian captains came to the Lord Justice as if they would be at peace with him; but the people of the Lord Justice went over to the island, and proceeded to kill and destroy the Italians; so that of the seven hundred Italians, not one individual escaped, but all were slaughtered on the spot. The Lord Justice also seized upon much gold, wealth, and other things, which the Italians had along with them; and he destroyed the fortifications of the island, in order that it should not be a supporting rock or a strong retreat for any insurgent any longer. This was done in the month of November. The Lord Justice returned to Limerick, and thence to Fingal.
M1580.23
An Italian fleet of the Pope's people landed in Kerry in the September of this year. Their name was greater than their importance, for their fame was at first so great that, had they come to Limerick, Galway, or Cork, these great towns would have been left wide open to them. The place where they landed was an island which James, the son of Maurice, had attempted to fortify the year before, namely, Dun-an-oir. This fleet was induced to come to Ireland to assist the Geraldines when they had heard that the Geraldines were reduced to great extremities in defending the Catholic faith. The Earl of Ormond, i.e. Thomas, the son of James, son of Pierce Roe, mustered an army in behalf of himself and of his sovereign, to proceed to Dun-an-oir against the Italians ; and he did not halt until he arrived in Kerry. The fine army of the Geraldines were there to meet him, but neither party made any attack upon the other; however, the passage was left open for the Earl until he arrived on the hill over the fort, from which, having reconnoitred the deep trenches and impregnable ramparts which the Italians had constructed around the island, he considered in his mind that it would be useless for him to offer them battle in their present fortified position. He, therefore, returned by the same route, and in Hy-Connell-Gaura met the Lord Justice, who would not be dissuaded by the Earl from proceeding to see Dun-an-oir. He proceeded by regular marches through Clanmaurice and Kerry, until he arrived in the vicinity of the island. He did not, however, bring his camp near it. Chosen parties of his army went daily to reconnoitre the island. Many communications mutually took place on both sides; and a promise of protection was made to them. The Italian captains came to the Lord Justice as if they would be at peace with him; but the people of the Lord Justice went over to the island, and proceeded to kill and destroy the Italians; so that of the seven hundred Italians, not one individual escaped, but all were slaughtered on the spot. The Lord Justice also seized upon much gold, wealth, and other things, which the Italians had along with them; and he destroyed the fortifications of the island, in order that it should not be a supporting rock or a strong retreat for any insurgent any longer. This was done in the month of November. The Lord Justice returned to Limerick, and thence to Fingal.
Good find Charles.
Is anyone familiar with re-enactors who have actually used gallowglass sparths in formation?
I see there is at least one group in Ireland.
http://www.claiomh.ie/16th-century-gaelic-iri...-park.html
I see there is at least one group in Ireland.
http://www.claiomh.ie/16th-century-gaelic-iri...-park.html
Charles. The guys of Claiomh are great. However, I don't think that they have enough members to experiment with battle formations. Maybe some day someone will get 10 or 20 re-enactors together and give it a go.
Here's a link to a thread over on SwordForum which has some posts that you guys might find interesting
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...st-good-PR
Hope this helps
Jason
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...st-good-PR
Hope this helps
Jason
Without too much technical knowledge of Gallowglass or their weapons/tactics, I have another possible reason for retention of the Sparth axe; related to the comments about martial tradition, but specifically about psychological effect:
Some reading on Irish history bubbled up from the depths of memory - that the Irish were practically obsessed with the terror of the Danish axe. Poems jotted down by monks using precious ink and vellum, etc.
If the Sparth axe descended from this weapon, perhaps Gallowglass found that it aided in striking fear into their opponents (often native Irish, I believe). Also, it could have boosted morale and confidence/ferocity among these warriors via the 'badass' and 'old school' effects imparted by their weapons of choice.
A less than scholarly assessment, but I'd love to hear someone expound on it.
Some reading on Irish history bubbled up from the depths of memory - that the Irish were practically obsessed with the terror of the Danish axe. Poems jotted down by monks using precious ink and vellum, etc.
If the Sparth axe descended from this weapon, perhaps Gallowglass found that it aided in striking fear into their opponents (often native Irish, I believe). Also, it could have boosted morale and confidence/ferocity among these warriors via the 'badass' and 'old school' effects imparted by their weapons of choice.
A less than scholarly assessment, but I'd love to hear someone expound on it.
Jason, thanks for the link. I'll have to read through it again but it looks interesting.
Reagh, thank you also for the reply. I could be wrong but I think that there was a more practical reason why the sparth axe was so popular amongst the gallowglass.
Reagh, thank you also for the reply. I could be wrong but I think that there was a more practical reason why the sparth axe was so popular amongst the gallowglass.
Forgive me if it's been suggested already, but I think one way to get closer to an answer would be to compare modern reproductions of a sparth axe and some polearm weapons which would have been in use in the same time period. Perhaps it would be able to magnify the differences between the sparth axe and other polearms, and those differences could be discussed.
It's myArmoury. Someone has got to have these weapons kicking around who could help?
It's myArmoury. Someone has got to have these weapons kicking around who could help?
I don't think massed heavy-weapon infantry is unprecedented by the 16th century is it, most notably among the English with their love for the bill hook.
George Silver at least felt that the black bill and battle axe were used in a similar fashion and played a similar role. According to him, both were quite good in combat between masses of armored men ". . . by reason of their weights, shortness, and great force. . ."
George Silver at least felt that the black bill and battle axe were used in a similar fashion and played a similar role. According to him, both were quite good in combat between masses of armored men ". . . by reason of their weights, shortness, and great force. . ."
I should have probably done this earlier, but attached are images of a halberd and an Irish axe-head. To me the halberd seems like a much more versatile weapon.
Because George Silver groups battle axes, black bills, and halberds altogether, I think that what he calls a battle axe was probably a cut and thrust weapon, like the other weapons it's grouped with. I'm not that familiar with Silver, but didn't he think that weapons should be good at both cutting and thrusting, or does that only apply to swords? Unlike halberds and bills, sparth axes seem to be far more concerned with cutting than thrusting.
I did find one interesting thing in Silver.
"Yet understand, that in battles, and where variety of weapons are, among multitudes of men and horses, the sword and target, the two handed sword, battle axe, the black bill, and halberd, are better weapons, and more dangerous in their offense and forces, than is the sword and buckler, short staff, long staff, or forest bill. The sword and target leads upon shot, and in troops defends thrusts and blows given by battle axe, halberds, black bill, or two handed swords, far better than can the sword and buckler."
He considered sword and target, two handed swords, and battle axes to be excellent battlefield weapons, well these just so happen to be the weapons most favoured by the Gaels.
Attachment: 13.39 KB
Because George Silver groups battle axes, black bills, and halberds altogether, I think that what he calls a battle axe was probably a cut and thrust weapon, like the other weapons it's grouped with. I'm not that familiar with Silver, but didn't he think that weapons should be good at both cutting and thrusting, or does that only apply to swords? Unlike halberds and bills, sparth axes seem to be far more concerned with cutting than thrusting.
I did find one interesting thing in Silver.
"Yet understand, that in battles, and where variety of weapons are, among multitudes of men and horses, the sword and target, the two handed sword, battle axe, the black bill, and halberd, are better weapons, and more dangerous in their offense and forces, than is the sword and buckler, short staff, long staff, or forest bill. The sword and target leads upon shot, and in troops defends thrusts and blows given by battle axe, halberds, black bill, or two handed swords, far better than can the sword and buckler."
He considered sword and target, two handed swords, and battle axes to be excellent battlefield weapons, well these just so happen to be the weapons most favoured by the Gaels.
Attachment: 13.39 KBOops the halberd image I tried to attach to my last post was too big so here's another one.
Attachment: 5.69 KB
Attachment: 5.69 KB| Stephen Curtin wrote: |
| I should have probably done this earlier, but attached are images of a halberd and an Irish axe-head. To me the halberd seems like a much more versatile weapon.
Because George Silver groups battle axes, black bills, and halberds altogether, I think that what he calls a battle axe was probably a cut and thrust weapon, like the other weapons it's grouped with. I'm not that familiar with Silver, but didn't he think that weapons should be good at both cutting and thrusting, or does that only apply to swords? Unlike halberds and bills, sparth axes seem to be far more concerned with cutting than thrusting. I did find one interesting thing in Silver. "Yet understand, that in battles, and where variety of weapons are, among multitudes of men and horses, the sword and target, the two handed sword, battle axe, the black bill, and halberd, are better weapons, and more dangerous in their offense and forces, than is the sword and buckler, short staff, long staff, or forest bill. The sword and target leads upon shot, and in troops defends thrusts and blows given by battle axe, halberds, black bill, or two handed swords, far better than can the sword and buckler." He considered sword and target, two handed swords, and battle axes to be excellent battlefield weapons, well these just so happen to be the weapons most favoured by the Gaels. |
He also lumps glaives, half-pikes, and simple staffs together in one category, so I imagine he considers there to still be some overlap even if some weapons were more specialized than others.
Late 16th century authors don't seem to quite consider weapons like two handed swords and sword and targets obsolete quite yet. The sword and target in particular still held a fair bit of esteem among the classically educated. The sense you get instead is that military writers consider halberdiers, billmen, swordsmen, targeteers, etc. to tactically fulfill more or less same battlefield role. It was considered impossible for anything else to stand against a wall of well-formed pikemen on open ground, but the shorter weapons were still more useful for fighting when the formation broke apart or when fighting in a trench, breach, or other rough terrain. Thus the ideal infantry composition was supposed to be something like 50% shot, 40% pike, and 10% or so "short weapons", with the exact weapon used depending mainly on preference and availability.
Good point Henry. A glaive can cut and thrust, whereas a half pike can only thrust. So yes Silver's battle axes don't necessarily have to have been cut and thrust weapons just because they were grouped with other cut and thrust weapons.
| Stephen Curtin wrote: |
| Because George Silver groups battle axes, black bills, and halberds altogether, I think that what he calls a battle axe was probably a cut and thrust weapon, like the other weapons it's grouped with. |
The word "battle axe" in late medieval English usually referred to the weapon we'd now call a poleaxe/pollaxe -- which sometimes isn't even an axe at all. Silver isn't all that far removed to the last use of the poleaxe on early sixteenth-century battlefields so I'd wager that his "battle axe" was a knightly poleaxe too.
Hi Lafayette. I didn't think pollaxes were still around in the Elizabethan period.
| Pieter B. wrote: |
| I don't want to fall in the trap of stereotyping Irish warfare but wasn't it mostly cattle raiding to begin with? Kerns driving away the cattle with the cavalry patrolling while axe wielding gallowglass infantry formed a rallying point? |
This is quite accurate as far as we can tell from the available evidence. The gallowglass' main role was basically as a blocking/delaying force to protect the rear of a cattle-raiding force on the way back home, since this was where they'd be the most vulnerable (they'd be more mobile on the way out since they'd only have combatants and a few support personnel, but far less so on the homeward leg because they'd have to herd all the cattle they had just rustled). One of the best overviews I've seen so far is Katherine Simm's article here: http://deremilitari.org/2014/08/warfare-in-th...lordships/
(As a matter of fact, we still see this phenomenon in African and Afghan irregular warfare today. The place of honour for the best and most reliable troops is often guarding the rear on the way home from a hit-and-run guerrilla attack).
| Stephen Curtin wrote: |
| Hi Lafayette. I didn't think pollaxes were still around in the Elizabethan period. |
They were! Poleaxes might have gone out of fashion on the battlefield, but there are records of tournaments and/or feats of arms fought with them well into the late sixteenth century.
Silver was fairly conservative. I suppose he might have considered pollaxes to be a perfectly useful weapon that should continue to be taught.
Yes cattle raids were by far the most common form of conflict in medieval Ireland. During one of these raids, the primary role of the gallowglass was to act as a moving defensive screen, guarding the booty laden kern and enabling the cavalry to regroup before launching another attack.
It should be noted that Gaelic cavalrymen also fought in the rearguard. In fact many cattle raids wouldn't have seen any gallowglass on either side, so the cavalry would be the only men available to act as a rearguard.
Here is a letter, dated to 1581, from Sir Nicholas Malbie to the Earl of Leicester. This account, though fairly late, is probably representative of a typical cattle raid. Note that gallowglass do not take part on either side of the skirmish.
"Shane Og O'Neill and Con O'Neill, sons to the late Shane O'Neill, came with 120 horsemen and 200 footmen into O'Reilly's country, called the Brenye, and took away 300 kine and other spoils. Shane O'Reilly and Philip O'Reilly, sons to O'Reilly, rose out with 40 horsemen and 30 footmen only, and killed Shane Og O'Neill, who was Shane O'Neill's eldest son, and took Con O'Neill prisoner. This is a very go,od service, for they were the best next to Tyr Lenaghe. One of Henry McShane's sons was slain, and one of Tyrlaghe Breslaghe's sons; which four be of the very best of Tyrone. Con is a very good pledge for that country."
Yes cattle raids were by far the most common form of conflict in medieval Ireland. During one of these raids, the primary role of the gallowglass was to act as a moving defensive screen, guarding the booty laden kern and enabling the cavalry to regroup before launching another attack.
It should be noted that Gaelic cavalrymen also fought in the rearguard. In fact many cattle raids wouldn't have seen any gallowglass on either side, so the cavalry would be the only men available to act as a rearguard.
Here is a letter, dated to 1581, from Sir Nicholas Malbie to the Earl of Leicester. This account, though fairly late, is probably representative of a typical cattle raid. Note that gallowglass do not take part on either side of the skirmish.
"Shane Og O'Neill and Con O'Neill, sons to the late Shane O'Neill, came with 120 horsemen and 200 footmen into O'Reilly's country, called the Brenye, and took away 300 kine and other spoils. Shane O'Reilly and Philip O'Reilly, sons to O'Reilly, rose out with 40 horsemen and 30 footmen only, and killed Shane Og O'Neill, who was Shane O'Neill's eldest son, and took Con O'Neill prisoner. This is a very go,od service, for they were the best next to Tyr Lenaghe. One of Henry McShane's sons was slain, and one of Tyrlaghe Breslaghe's sons; which four be of the very best of Tyrone. Con is a very good pledge for that country."
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