Take a step back and look at the amazing number of new products released by Albion Armorers in the past three years. Compare the product line from 2002 with the present product line. The growth has been phenomenal. Nobody could have predicted or legitmately expected that we would all be the beneficiaries of so many beautiful new products in such a short time.

The first dozen Next Gen Swords came in at or ahead of predicted completion dates, if I recall correctly. I praised Albion at the time for the speed at which the new designs were becoming available. As the designs became more refined the average time between announcement and delivery lengthened. This is what must occur when a small business succeeds in expanding its product line this rapidly. Peter Johnsson didn't grow another pair of arms just because the sword line became more popular.

The longest delay that has occurred so far is still shorter than the time we have all spent waiting to obtain that same sword from another maker. In fact, most of these sword types could not be obtained from other makers at any price, no matter how long the wait.

I am a lot happier knowing what designs are seriously under development long before I have to pay for one, than I would be if the announcement of each new type waited until the sword was ready for delivery. I doubt that Albion could successfully offer as many different sword types as they do, if every new product had to be ready for sale before it was announced.

While it is true that some of the later designs have been modified following the announcement of their original specifications, these changes are all the sort of improvement we expect from craftsmen who care about the quality of the finished product. I did not expect to be advised in advance about the changes made to the design of the Kingmaker while I awaited its completion, for example. I trusted the people at Albion to get it right. They did not disappoint me.

On the issue of late deliveries:

I've bought swords from a number of swordmakers, and almost every one has missed at least one deadline. I think the nature of the business, the type of people who make swords, and the size of the company militates against an efficient assembly line operation. Still, I'm very pleased when something does show up on time.

If the swordmaker misses the first estimated completion date, it doesn't bother me too much. Lots of things can happen to throw things off schedule. If the second completion date is missed, I start to get worried. At the third, I get angry with the swordmaker, and feel I'm being strung along. There have been makers who have broken five or more estimated shipping dates for my order. I eventually got those swords, some of them of high quality, but I was so angry at being screwed with, that I swore I would never order from them again. And I haven't. Edited in to be clear - I'm not referring to Albion here.

I's not uncommon in business to give the customer over-optimistic or even false completion promises, just to get them off your back. It works in the short run, but is really bad for repeat business. I'd much rather hear that something is going to take six months and have it delivered then, than receive a rosier estimate of one month, and then travel down a path of broken promises.

I can not comment on having to wait for a sword that is still being designed but all I can say is that in my dealiing with them they were earlier than expected. This was for a sword that was already in production and it is clear that in this respect they deliver, and deliver well, and they seem to be getting better and better at this from what I can gather from testimonials and comments on this site.

Chad is right that people should fully expect quality and delivery times to both be met. What Albion appeared to be doing with estimated release dates for swords on their site was keep potential customers in the loop. A while ago when there was a lot of negative feedback soon after the beginning of the Albion Benefactors, they took the estimated release times off their site as they were getting criticsim levelled at them for not meeting these deadlines.

I do not know if people have experienced problems with swords that were in production having more than reasonablly late deliveries but from what I can see these problems are primarily with swords still being developed, and the research and design of these swords taking longer than anyone (including Albion) expects.

I acknowledge that deadlines are important but I certainly view the delays as the lesser of two evils. 10 years down the track when you are swinging your Kingmaker or Munich will you wish that Albion had delivered on time or will you be thankfull that the delivery was later than expected to arrive at a perfect product. This is not trying to diminished the importance of delivery dates but more trying to exhibit the difficulting with R&D and striving for excellence.

Chad as far as changed products are concerned I am aware that the Kingmaker was a significantly different sword but which other products are different from the preliminary sketches and statistics? I point out the Kingmaker because to me it is the most obviously different one, but aside from minor changes such as the style of guards or pommels nothing else comes to my mind.

My experience with Albion is that they are very prompt about getting swords that are already in the production pipeline shipped and delivered within the timeframes specified on their website. If it says, for example, "3 to 4 weeks delivery time", I have found that you can count on it arriving well within that period, generally on the 'short' end of it.

I have noticed that swords not yet in production are quite another matter. The website used to specify in a general way when a given model would become available, i.e., "Spring of 2006" or some such. It no longer does. Those deadlines were not, in my experience, often met. I have found that if you want a given model of sword that has not yet come into full production, you are going to have to wait for quite a while. If you want it bad enough, then you will just get into an acceptance mode and be patient. If not, then you'd probably be best served to either pass or to order something that is already being produced. I will say that on the occasions when I have had to wait, the wait has been worth it.

Early in 2005, I ordered a Talhoffer while it was still a drawing. Mike told me straight up that it would be November-ish or so (he obviously couldn't say an exact date). November was still a ways away, but I was willing to wait. Sure enough, the sword arrived right before Thanksgiving, just as I was told. The swordmaker delivered as promised and the customer's expectations were met (and then some!).

By the way, Joe, I love the Earl. Congrats! :eek:

You know I dig the regent more still, but any new sword s a good sword! ;)

And as for all the other talk, all I could think about while reading was, "...MRL.... how easy we forget....". That and how i can remember seeing flyers in my C64 games back in 1989 for neverwinter nights "comming soon!", but not seeing the game itself for almost 5 years...

Paul,
There was the Kingmaker as you mention. The Agincourt drawing had a wheel pommel with a flat boss, not a hollowed one (I like the drawing much better). The proportions of the Sheriff's guard and pommel look a little different. Ditto the Poitiers and the Crecy. This is going back a ways, but the Regent drawing is very different than the production sword, which has seen even more changes since it was introduced. The guard on the Gallowglass looks a little different, too (the points of the guard appear to be proportioned differently). The pommel on the Viceroy drawing was more streamlined-looking in the drawing. The Guard of the Vassal is thicker in the production version; its grip also has risers that don't seem to be on the drawing. Some of these are admittedly minor and could be in how you interpret the drawings. Some, though, are obvious changes.

As far as delivery times go for not-in-production swords, Albion has wisely removed them from the site. However, I know two people who were waiting for orders in the last year that were told delivery dates by Mike that came and went several times over. I think Mike gets hung out to dry by things out of his control. I think he gives out the best info he has.

The times for delivery on in-stock swords (which are posted on their website) haven't always been good. Only one of my late swords was ordered before it was in production. The rest were in production and listed with 2-3 week delivery or something. Perhaps recent orders of in-stock items are shipping on time. Any recent purchasers care to comment?

Someone mentioned Albion's scabbards and wondered if they should worry about how blade changes/tweaks/upgrades would affect a scabbard not built on their particular blade. I would think it would be a concern. Albion Europe is quoting 2 1/2 years on scabbards. That means a scabbard could be built around a new Regent blade for a sword made before the change. One would hope and assume, though, that they considered that. Also, these are handmade swords and there are variations. For example, my Regent is 4 ounces lighter than earlier ones, likely due to more agressive hollow-grinding in its make. I have two campaign line scabbards. One fits extremely well. The other? Fairly sloppy. Neither were built around my particular blades.

Let me address a few of the concerns here as best I can. I have no interest in keeping all of this going, but I think that people should get answers to their questions.

As noted, we no longer make public promises on delivery dates on new products. We found out that reality would not conform to our ambitious agenda - but we have still produced more new models at a higher level of quality than any one thought we really would.

You may also notice that we have not announced new products beyond those on the page for some time. That doesn't mean we aren't working on lots of new stuff - we have just learned that it doesn't make sense to announce them before we are ready to do so.

When a lot of the older "new" products were originally announced, Peter's life was very different. He wasn't married, didn't have children. Now he is married and has two beautiful children. The time that he can devote to R&D has had to be adjusted as a result. He is working feverishly in the time he has available, and on average we can put out a new model within 8 weeks of receiving the waxes from Peter (5 weeks of that is turn around from the foundry.)

As to Peter's drawings and the finished product - we have never indicated that the drawings were in any way a technical specification for the finished sword. They are concept drawings intended to show the "character" if you will of the sword we will be producing. As much as people love Peter's drawings (and a lot of customers collect them), they generally love the finished piece even more. Small drawings can't capture the subtleties Peter builds into the final piece and the changes that he makes in the design process. Most changes aren't as radical as the Kingmaker, but we are also working on another model that will have many of the characteristics of the original concept drawing.

On the production side, we meet or beat turn-around times stated on our page far more often than we miss them.The vast majority of our customers don't press Mike for a hard and fast date. Those that do will get what our best estimate is, but a lot of factors influence meeting those dates. Over the last couple of years, we have lost a lot of staff and new people need training time. And we have the same problems every business faces - heat-treating system goes down, CNC machine goes down, people are out sick, castings don't arrive when they are supposed to or are cast in the wrong metal or otherwise unusable, steel doesn't arrive on time - you name it. Even with all of that, we ship a lot of swords every week and our return rate is less than 1%.

On scabbards - we always have told customers that the only way to guarantee a perfect fit is to send the sword in. Our pieces are hand-ground and that means that each sword is like a snowflake - each one is unique within certain parameters. Aaron is working with Peter on a new (well actually old and traditional) method of making scabbards that will be another "first in the industry" that will make it even more critical that it be made to fit a particular sword. But it also means that sometime soon we will be able to ship swords with their custom scabbards, without a 2 year plus wait time.

Our motto has always been that "good enough isn't good enough" and we always strive to put out the best product we can. Often that takes time and means starting over from the beginning. In a perfect world, we'd be able to notfiy every customer that their piece is being delayed, but with the staff we have that has not been possible. Someday, I hope.

All that said, we aren't perfect, omniscient or anything approaching that. We are human beings, doing the best we can. We don't spend a lot of time on forums because we just don't have the time to do so, and the vast majority of our customers have never been to one. But we do come here to try to keep people informed - though in some cases apparently we have not made an announcement about some thing that people feel we should have. We also try to be somewhat circumspect about posting, not just posting to post, but only when we feel we have something meaningful to offer.

Hope that helps.

Best,

Howy

In fairness Albion does put quite a bit of information up on their website. At one time they also put quite a bit of information up here, and they engaged in active dialog here. Sometimes these exchanges were uncomfortable, and they always represented a risk, but there was and can be a reward as well.

As a sword buyer:

I don't go to Albions website to check on things very often.
For that matter I don't check Atrims site very often either.
Or A&A's, or MRL's, or Lutel's, or AC, or any of them.

But I do come here every day. I do go to SFI every few days. I also hit the Firestriker and the ARMA forums more regulalry than I hit vendor sites. So when A&A announces an item of the month, I go to their site (their store). When Atrim talks about a new heat treat, I often end up at his site. Ditto for a number of custom smiths who post news and get involved in dialog from time to time. Sometimes these visits convince me I must buy a few more things, things that I don't consider when I rarely browse the storee (sites). Because of this, I think there is a return for staying engaged. There is even a return for answering tough questions, even when some people don't like the answers they get.

The shame of this is that all is that I think these product upgrades should be causing a wave of excitement in the collecting community, not a wave of mixed concern and excitement. That is why I think they should be proactively communicated, otherwise it is a missed marketing (i.e sales generating) opportunity.

*Please note I worked this post before I saw Howry's post immediately above. This is not a response to it.

With the accuracy of concept drawings I can understand that if a feature in a drawing that was the thing that motivated someone to really want a specific sword gets changed or dropped it can be disappointing if one has pre-ordered rather than wait for the first pics of the actual production sword: But I think the pre-production drawing are there to give us an early idea of a projected sword and it was at least mentioned by Peter, at some time, that these are early in the design process and might change.

The nature of any creative process is that early ideas ARE going to change 99% of the time: Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. The only other choice is to refuse to improve or correct early design ideas.

The only other choice would be to only show swords once the designs are past the first production stage: I don't think we would want to only find out about plans for new swords at that time ! So, to be fair, I don't think we should put Albion in a position of damned if you do or damned if you don't. :eek:

The waiting period for all of my Albion swords were at or faster than promised. ( All in production swords ) But even a 100% error in delivery estimate would have been acceptable to me if we are talking of 3 weeks becoming 6 weeks as long as it was communicated to me with a reasonable reason why. ( Doesn't have to be an Earth shaking reason ! A slow delivery of steel from a supplier or an error in steel type as an example just pulled out of my hat ! A key employee leaving for some reason, bad heat treat of a batch of swords etc ....... ) Even business being better than expected and the waiting cue being longer than hoped for !

The thing is that when there is a delay, most of the time by most of the " good " vendors / makers, the reason or the next projected delivery date is given in all sincerity and honesty at the time it is given: The problems start becoming frustrating when delays repeat too many times ! Oh, and when I will start feeling frustrated is very dependant on previous good service from a specific vendor: It may not be consistent but I will give a LOT more slack to people or businesses I like
;) :lol: Human nature I guess.

Anyway I just don't want to just emphasize the negative ! And we are lucky that there are production companies even making historically ( Close or very close: As close as we can get ! ) accurate swords today.

( Edited: Note, I wrote and posted this before Howard's post which I am going to read right after writting this. )

The last two swords I ordered from Albion were the St. Maurice and the Svante. The St. Maurice arrived in two weeks, record time I thought. Apparently Albion just happened to have the components on hand at that time and we got lucky, or rather Greg got lucky. I still think it was unfair for him to get his sword in two weeks whereas I had to wait six months. :p Yes, it was about six months to the day on delivery for the Svante. Was I happy about this? No. Did it make me want to jump on the bandwagon and vilify Albion here because they didn't meet the "reasonable expectations" they had set in place? No.

In reality this is exactly what I was expecting. The Svante has a long production time, probably one of, if not the longest in Albions line-up and they only make so many of them a year. Consequently, I was expecting a long wait. So when Mike told me there would be a delay because Peter was redesigning the guard, I shrugged my shoulders and basically adopted a "whatever" attitude. I won't deny it was a bit frustrating as I was very eager to take posession of one of the coolest swords out there, but it did give me the opportunity to raze Mike with a few phone calls of "Where's my sword b**ch!" (actually, the first time I planned on doing that to him Amy answered the phone, so I'm glad I waited for voice recognition first!) It also gave Greg plenty of opportunity to rib me with repeated questions of, "Is it here yet, is it here?" It actually became something of a running joke between us. In the end the Svante arrived just about when I expected it to and now hangs in a conspicuous place in my display room. I now have two swords in my collection I'd never consider selling unless some severe unseen calamity occurs, that's one of them.

These things may be made using a lot of modern machinery but there's still a huge amount of handwork involved and that means a certain amount of variance from sword to sword. If a person simply can't deal with that they need to go down to the mall and buy a Marto, or something from United Cutlery (hurry because they just filed Chapter 11). That way you'll get a sword that will be exactly the same as every other one like it. That should meet any "reasonable expectation" of conformity and, quite frankly, it will be what that person deserves. If a buyer sets the expectation of a new sword automatically fitting an existing scabbard then that's an expectation they've set, not the company and in reality it's not a very realistic one. If you expect that kind of conformity you'd better stick with cell phones and MP3's not swords. Your bad not Albions. They've never made that kind of guarantee, just like they've never claimed the production example would look exactly like the concept drawing. In fact, they've pointed out numerous times this isn't the case. If your sword has to look exactly like the drawing, if the grip color has to be exactly as you envision it, if you absolutely can't tolerate any variance in the technical stats the sword possesses, then you'd better stick with that Marto sword because an organic object with a lot of involved handwork isn't for you.

People wonder why Albion doesn't really get involved in on-line forums anymore. The fact is they're not alone, many custom makers and production companies long ago left the crazy net behind. They simply got tired of being given "expert" advice they didn't ask for, being vilified at every turn when the sky began to fall because someones sword was late and being lectured by idiots who wouldn't know a Vince Evans from a Bud K. As Howy pointed out, only a fraction of their business can be traced to internet websites like this, he's told me perhaps no more than one percent. (sorry if that was confidential Howy but I think it's very relevant here) Can our resident marketing genius tell me if this is worth it given the gain/loss, publicity/aggrivation ratio? Albion is selling swords as fast as they can make them and expanding globally, they must be doing something right, all in spite of not following our expert advice. We sit around at our computers spouting wisdom and think we're someone in this "community" of smoke and mirrors, in reality we're pretty small potatoes people. The real knowledgeable people, the serious collectors any successful company wants to court, are too busy doing real research, too busy giving serious study to the actual martial application of these swords we love so much, writing papers and books on antique arms. They're people with money who buy half a dozen swords at a time and come back for more time after time, not some poor college student who only buys one sword then complains the grip color or the point of balance doesn't meet his expectations. They aren't waisting their time hanging out on the crazy net.

Albion isn't perfect, lord knows I've been incredibly frustrated with them at certain points in the past. However, I've been doing business with Albion since they were operating out of Howy and Amys basement and I'll continue to do so. In the end they aren't perfect but they're doing the best job they can to bring us the best product possible. I happen to think it's the best product of its kind on the planet, being made by imperfect but darned good people. So I'm willing to put up with a few bumps in the road along the way. I know it's frustrating at times but if a person demands that kind of perfection, they're better off entering a Chinese monastery and drawing pictures in the sand, rather than dealing with swords.

Howry,

Thank you for your last post. In some small way it fills some information void that has been a source of speculation. In the end, I just want to hear how things are going from time to time, here if possible.

I sincerely hope that you will continue to talk to us.

Best regards,
Joe