Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:24 am
Re: Sorry about the length of this one.
| Joe Fults wrote: |
Mentioning Gus in this thread is a risk, as is always the case when mixing vendors in online conversations. However, I appreciate the fact that with all else he does, Gus understands the value of marketing changes and rarely misses an opportunity to announce them. He tells his customers they are coming, and he tells them why the changes are coming. In fact I in my opinion he is about the only person in the industry that really markets product improvements to their potential. I think its part of what makes many of his customers into passionate advocates.
Best regards,
Joe |
Good morning Joe
Managed to shake up things this morning a bit, huh? I saw this last nite, and if it hadn't attracted the negative attention it has, i would have stayed out of it.......
Its ok, you and i have a bit of a similar hobby, we both like to poke Albion and Howy a bit. But I personally, never mention customers or other folks when I get Howy a bit, and I just do it a bit nowadays because I know he has no sense of humor. However, on a similar note, I'm not real excited about having my name dragged into a comparison, particularly a bad comparison wih Albion.
Albion now has 80% of the "upper tier" market, and they have gotten here because of the great artistic talents of Peter Johnson, and the best marketing the sword market has ever seen.
My "passionate advocates", if there is such a thing, are that way because the swords I make live up to the billing, and then some. They handle as much or more like the better antiques than anyone else' in the market, they are more durable than most other swords of similar caliber, and they outcut most others, when things even get close to apples and apples....
If you want to jab Howy and Albion again, please keep my name out of it, at least publicly
Auld Dawg
Last edited by Angus Trim on Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:31 am; edited 2 times in total
Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:27 am
| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
I would have thought I was posting too often, rather than too seldom...Silly me.
I can certainly learn much from Gus when it comes to communication and internet activity. I shall take that to heart.
Since the start of this forum I have posted some 670+ posts. Gus has posted some 570+ posts on this forum alone, not counting the forums where he is also acting as moderator (how on earth can the man find the time!?!?!).
|
Actually Peter, I think the marketing message that you and Albion do is the best in the industry. If you want to waste time being irritated with me, please do it when I do something to jab {which does happen often enough} you, and forget the unfortunate incidents when some third party drags my name into something to apparently incite a little excitement.........
Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:29 am
| Howard Waddell wrote: |
Joe:
We sent you the sword in advance of posting it because you had waited so long for it. We thought that was a good thing. Apparently it wasn't and I apologise. As my old boss used to say: "No good deed goes unpunished."
Sorry I could not get photos up in time - I have found with the hollow-ground blades especially, that I get the best photos outdoors. Like you, we have had a lot of rain lately.
And I am sorry that we fall so short of your expectations on apparently every level of our business.
Best,
Howy |
Actually Howy, I think your business plan is terrific........and I think you get your message across just fine.......
No one wins them all, we're all always in trouble with one customer or another.........
And I'm not poking you this time........
Auld Dawg
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:38 am
| Howard Waddell wrote: |
Joe:
We sent you the sword in advance of posting it because you had waited so long for it. We thought that was a good thing. Apparently it wasn't and I apologise. As my old boss used to say: "No good deed goes unpunished."
Sorry I could not get photos up in time - I have found with the hollow-ground blades especially, that I get the best photos outdoors. Like you, we have had a lot of rain lately.
And I am sorry that we fall so short of your expectations on apparently every level of our business.
Best,
Howy |
Howy,
There is no need to apologize. They delay stunk, the product is excellent, the changes were an unexpected but pleasant surprise. The only minor fly in the mix is I have to buy a new scabbard, which is annoying but not the end of the world (although it would have been nice to see it coming before it came).
But I'm curious, is feedback given here so unacceptable anymore?
Albion, by its actions, chose to have a dialogue with the community here, at myArmoury, when they launched the Next Gens. Much of the online community (especially in other forums) still refers to this place as the Albion forum, which probably vexes Nathan to no end since he has his own brand.
So this is the place I come to talk to you.
I guess I should have called or emailed instead, but I got home to the sword after you were closed and I was excited, surprised, and yes annoyed that my scabbard did not fit. I began posting things I found as I found them and thoughts as I thought them. Bottom line is that I was EXCITED about your product and my posts have been made in the midst of that excitement. Its unfortunate that an excellent sword is getting lost in all of this.
There are, there have been, and there will be bumps in this dialog, but I think the dialog here is the single most important reason why many of us have an emotional investment in you and your enterprise. My company would kill to get an emotional reaction from any of its customers, because without it, we are just selling a commodity and our margin pressures are absurd. I post about Albion because you guys have succeeded in becoming more than just a retailer. Because I hope it makes a difference, and because you are the market leader in this segment (which is no small feat given your relative newcomer status to production). I post about Albion, because as the market leader you set the baseline for everyone else, and I think you probably are, or at least could be, the case study for this business.
For the curious, I'll get what pictures I can up today, but they will not be great because the light still sucks here too.
Last edited by Joe Fults on Wed 01 Nov, 2006 1:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 9:45 am
Re: Sorry about the length of this one.
| Angus Trim wrote: |
But I personally, never mention customers or other folks when I get Howy a bit, and I just do it a bit nowadays because I know he has no sense of humor. However, on a similar note, I'm not real excited about having my name dragged into a comparison, particularly a bad comparison wih Albion
Auld Dawg |
Angus,
Not sure I follow the bad comparison part, I used you as an example of a best practice. One that I think helps your customers avoid some surprises and helps to generate a significant amount of interest in your product. No more, no less.
What anyone else chooses to see is a product of their assumptions, and perhaps poor presentation on my part.
And yes, you have passionate advocates (borrowing a term from work), as does Albion for that matter. Most big companies would kill for them. Its a credit to you, and Albion, that you have them.
Best regards,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Fults on Wed 01 Nov, 2006 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 10:04 am
Finally a few bad photos
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 10:10 am
Well as an innocent bystander one thing I can say is that my interest in learning more and seeing more about this specific sword has considerably increased: I had noticed it before, but now I'm at least thinking about it as a potential purchase when my current other purchases from various vendors have all been paid for.
I might even buy a different Albion sword but it is making me think about which one I want most first !
The blade improvements or upgrade I perceive as a good thing.
Posts: 395 Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 10:22 am
Another good looking sword, although the Regents guard and pommel still do it for me.
Apart from the differences in the point what strikes me is the huge difference with the shape of the grip. The Regent I own has a grip that appears to be much more like that of your Earl, excluding the fact that on the Earl the leather goes down further on the pommel changing the proportional appearance of the hilt.
Good to see some photo's after so much discussion.
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 10:22 am
Hmmmmm ....... NICE. :cool:
The point still looks very aggressive but less delicate. Now this doesn't mean that the original design was weak or bad? No, only that the new one inspires more confidence in me at least.
The curves of the guard is a surprise as I didn't get that impression from the drawing. ( I should go back to the Albion site and check the drawing and re-read the text describing the sword: I may have missed it if it was mentioned. )
Note: I do realize that the concept drawing and the final product can diverge a bit as the project evolves and design choices are made. As well some subtleties may not be obvious.
Posts: 634 Location: UK
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 10:38 am
Mr Fults
Nice pictures. I prefer the new tip. I was obviously mistaken about the pommel.
Geoff
Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 10:44 am
Re: Sorry about the length of this one.
| Joe Fults wrote: |
| Angus Trim wrote: | But I personally, never mention customers or other folks when I get Howy a bit, and I just do it a bit nowadays because I know he has no sense of humor. However, on a similar note, I'm not real excited about having my name dragged into a comparison, particularly a bad comparison wih Albion
Auld Dawg |
Angus,
Not sure I follow the bad comparison part, I used you as an example of a best practice. One that I think helps your customers avoid some surprises and helps to generate a significant amount of interest in your product. No more, no less.
What anyone else chooses to see is a product of their assumptions, and perhps poor presentation on my part.
And yes, you have passionate advocates (borrowing a term from work), as does Albion for that matter. Most big companies would kill for them. Its a credit to you, and Albion, that you have them.
Best regards,
Joe |
Hi Joe
Actually, we've talked about this before......
Its never a good practice to compare Albion and AT in such a manner. Its guaranteed to draw attention. The only reason to do this is to stir the pot, and I kinda think that's what you had in mind.......
All you have to do is look at PJ's response, and you can see that there is still hard feelings and a certain defensiveness. You've been around the forums for four years now, and I don't think this response is really a surprise.....
Now that you've got some photos up, why not just leave this as an opportunity to show off a nice sword?
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 10:50 am
| Paul Watson wrote: |
Another good looking sword, although the Regents guard and pommel still do it for me.
Apart from the differences in the point what strikes me is the huge difference with the shape of the grip. The Regent I own has a grip that appears to be much more like that of your Earl, excluding the fact that on the Earl the leather goes down further on the pommel changing the proportional appearance of the hilt.
Good to see some photo's after so much discussion. |
I've seen the grip changes between my very early Regent and some of the later models. Not sure what drove that adjustment, but its noticable when two of them are side by side. This Earl brings, or seems to bring, another round of changes. If its not new, it at least brings them onto my radar and its a very different sword than its predecessor. Subjectively I feel that my Earl is a significantly better sword than my Regent, which I thought was the best darn sword ever when I got it several years back. I really need to play with it outside to be sure, and the weather won't allow that right now, but I am optomistic about its performance.
BTW the profile of the tip of the Earl is also more substantial (than my Regent) from the side view. At least it looks that way to me. The tip really does seem to be reinforced and I would trust it to penetrate a harder target much more than I would the origininal Regent blade profile.
Last edited by Joe Fults on Wed 01 Nov, 2006 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 10:52 am
For what its worth, I'm sorry this thread wasted time on other things, because I think there really are a lot of exciting things about this sword, and probably about the newer Regents too, that have not been discussed at length publically.
I also suppose I should get of my duff and create a photo area like some of the myArmoury folks have. From what I've seen it does not take that much to get decent pictures inside regardless of weather. I've just been lazy about it.
Last edited by Joe Fults on Wed 01 Nov, 2006 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 10:56 am
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Hmmmmm ....... NICE. :cool:
The point still looks very aggressive but less delicate. Now this doesn't mean that the original design was weak or bad? No, only that the new one inspires more confidence in me at least.
The curves of the guard is a surprise as I didn't get that impression from the drawing. ( I should go back to the Albion site and check the drawing and re-read the text describing the sword: I may have missed it if it was mentioned. )
Note: I do realize that the concept drawing and the final product can diverge a bit as the project evolves and design choices are made. As well some subtleties may not be obvious. |
Jean,
I'm pretty sure there was talk about the curve way back when.
Its something I was unsure about, but it really works in this package. This of course is one big reason why I only buy swords, I don't have the talent to see them before they exist.
As for the original point (the one on my Regent), I have experienced no problems.
That said, I feel more confident about the (new) one.
Last edited by Joe Fults on Wed 01 Nov, 2006 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 11:10 am
| Joe Fults wrote: |
Jean,
I'm pretty sure there was talk about the curve way back when.
Its something I was unsure about, but it really works in this package. This of course is one big reason why I only buy swords, I don't have the talent to see them before they exist.
As for the original point, I have experienced no problems.
That said, I feel more confident about the (new) one. |
And yes, sometimes things look or don't look strong enough and it is just perception! But perceptions are often what we base our buying decisions on.
And since the original point was good this one looks better / stronger.
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 11:22 am
Re: Sorry about the length of this one.
| Angus Trim wrote: |
Hi Joe
Actually, we've talked about this before......
Its never a good practice to compare Albion and AT in such a manner. Its guaranteed to draw attention. The only reason to do this is to stir the pot, and I kinda think that's what you had in mind.......
All you have to do is look at PJ's response, and you can see that there is still hard feelings and a certain defensiveness. You've been around the forums for four years now, and I don't think this response is really a surprise.....
Now that you've got some photos up, why not just leave this as an opportunity to show off a nice sword? |
Angus,
I understand your position. I also agree that I know these comparisions draw controversy and that this thread should have avoided it. I will also freely admit I'm not the product advocate I once was, however, to claim that the only reason to make a comparison is to stir the pot, ignores the simple fact that consumers compare and talk about the products they buy.
Even when the products claim to be apples and oranges.
So no matter what anybody says about not comparing vendors, people do and people will. People will look for a best, define criteria for best, and claim to have found a best. Its a very human thing to do. How vendors chose to react to comparisons is up to them.
I sincerely appologize for refering to you in this thread.
I also sincerely hope that we can all talk about what different firms do well someday without it causing an industry crisis.
-Joe
Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 11:33 am
Re: Sorry about the length of this one.
| Joe Fults wrote: |
I also sincerely hope that we can all talk about what different firms do well someday without it causing an industry crisis.
-Joe |
Hi Joe
I'm sure we'll be able to one of these fine days.... been a lot of progress really......
Thanks for the early morning entertainment, have a nice day, and enjoy your new sword.........
Auld Dawg
Posts: 2,608
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 1:32 pm
Congratulations on the new sword Joe, it's a very nice looking weapon I may like it better then the regent... but then I've always had a thing for type 12 crosses. I think that it is outstanding that Albion has beefed up the point for this model kudos to them for constantly trying to improve their product.
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Joe;
Oh, with scabbards I had Russ Ellis make my Tritonia scabbard based on his own Tritonia: I think we were both crossing our fingers that it would fit properly. This may have been unwise and maybe a false assumption but I took this calculated risk because with a Museum Line sword I very much assumed that the dimensional accuracy of blade profile and distal taper would be kept to very close tolerances: At least more consistent than the Next Generation swords that don't try to duplicate the exact dimensions of an historical swords.
Oh, by the way my Tritonia scabbard fit perfectly. ;) :lol: |
I have to say that I was on pins and needles until you told me that all was well Jean. I have only used by swords as mandrils a handful of times and I always warn the customers that if it does not fit their sword as opposed to my sword. I am really sorry but that I am warning them up front... So far I have been lucky. The couple of Albions and A&A pieces I have done this way were not so different that they caused problems. However as a word of warning at one time it just so happened that I had two of the same model sword from another manufacturer (no not Atrim) that I was working on at once. Fortunately before I started building the cores I noticed something... one of the swords was 3 inches longer then the other!!! Variations are going to happen even in production swords over time.
Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 2:18 pm
I'm not at all happy to walk into this topic at this point.
Let me take a moment to reiterate my expectations for all those deciding to participate on this site.
I expect the members of this site to freely discuss and give feedback on arms and armour related products and their makers. I expect these discussions to be done in the most honest, professional, and matter-of-fact ways. This discussion will include criticism alongside the typical glowingly positive remarks we see around here. I have given the makers a venue to communicate with their customer base. I expect this communication to be done in a professional way.
This environment is bound to produce conversations that include a discussion of disappointment. If it's done professionally and without ranting, then not only am I fine with it, I encourage it. This environment will also produce "armchair business practice" discussions: people will express opinions on marketing, decisions, etc. This is especially true for companies who have opened themselves up for ideas and feedback. This may or may not produce anything useful to the makers themselves.. My suggestion to the makers is to leave such discussions to the people having them and to know when not to get involved in them.
There are many things about this topic that bother me.
The defensive responses really do not help the situation and have not served any party well. It's my opinion that this creates an environment where people end up holding their tongues, leaving nothing but worthless "this is great!" posts and no real discussion. Maybe that's the intention, but at the end of the day I believe it's simply bad customer service. Either way, I don't want to see that around here any more.
The comments about individual people--not companies, not products, their business practices, but people--are out of line. Reprimanding other members and telling people what they are allowed to say and what they are not is also out of bounds. Any person feeling bothered need to do such conversations off the public forum, be it by taking it up with the individual privately (my preference) or by contacting myself or a moderator. This has been made crystal clear on this site.
I don't know where to go with this. I now have some private messages to send out and some email needing responses. I thought about typing more and trying to be much more explanatory and all that, but frankly I don't want to deal with it. The truth is that the parties in this topic know how to behave and what is and what is not out of bounds. Let's keep this simple: act accordingly.
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 01 Nov, 2006 2:37 pm
Back to the Earl
As I sit and waste time, I'm off today for the physician, I keep playing with the Earl from time to time. Its not just the new sword things. I've had many a new sword over the year and there is more to it than that.
This thing really is a brilliant piece of work. I'm pretty sure the new pommel is going to be uber comfortable and I cannot wait to take it for a test ride. To me, and this is extremely subjective, it has a somewhat less noble appearance than its predicessor, which is highly desirable. The Earl is lighter, I also suspect stronger and faster, than what came before it. I waited quite a while for this specific sword, but even before I ordered this one I was looking for a sword like this one. I've even tried to have people make something like it a few times, but as I said I could not see it before, which was limiting.
Now I can see it and play with it.
If I had money coming out of my ears I'd probably buy another one, now that they are on the market.
Last edited by Joe Fults on Wed 01 Nov, 2006 8:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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