"Superduke".... I can't get this out of my head: link

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Hi Jean!

Thanks for the images.

They are, however, of limited utility without citations. I can't speak for the last image, but the first looks like one of the South German illustrated 'Sigenot' manuscripts, which feature the popular knightly heroes Hildebrand and Dietrich. In that case, they're right out: there are numerous super-feats in those stories, along with giants, dwarves, and the like.

I'm not sure what's going on with the last image...maybe we can dig further into that one.

Thanks again for following up, but I don't think this is particularly good evidence; I surely find it unlikely anyone could cut all the way through a cased greave with a longsword.

Christian

[ Linked Image ]


hmmmm, looks like the guy on the left is an SCA fighter: hit him in the leg and he continues to fight from his knee. could almost call this evidence of SCA wound rules being historically accurate (if this was a usefull historical reference and if I wasn't typing this with tongue firmly in cheek). ;)

I culd see that being the case too Nathan, but I couldn't pass the chance to poke at my brothers in armor. I am one of those silly SCA guys myself after all.

Jean, I think you mis-understand. My point is that how well you do in a duel isn't a good gauge of the validity of the system, it's just a good gauge of the individual fighter. And as such, it provides no proof of the validity of SCA technique...just that we in the SCA can produce competent fighters, who may or may not be using good techniques for an actual sword fight. A better way would be to meet up with HEMA people, do some slow work or drills and see what techniques bypass what defenses. This includes armor or no armor. Then spar for fun because well they are fun.

I must be stupid then because I'd been doing stick fighting for 10 years when I discovered the fechtbucher and I found most of the basic Lichtenauer guards (ochs, pflug, alber) and most of the mastercuts (zwerch, krumph, shielhau) to be completely counter-intuitive initially. Simple, once you understand them; wonderful once you grasp their use. But not something I think you easily pick up by trial and error (except over the course of several generations perhaps)

YMMV.

J

My answer to the question is yes if one has in fact used SCA fighting techniques in a real fight in which they have been attacked by someone who was intentionally trying to injure them.

I can say for myself that I was in fact attacked by someone who was more than twice my size and strength who fully intended to kill me. I used only SCA learned blows to defend myself against my attacker using a tire drop down tube which I managed to grab. My attacker knocked me to the ground and tried to kill me by bashing my head into the pavement. The only reason I'm still alive is that I knew how to throw an SCA wrap shot which took off part of his scalp. Out of nine blows I threw at my attacker all but one landed without being blocked. My attacker was armed with a switchblade but I took him down before he was able to deploy it.
I was charged with assault because of false statements made by dishonest persons and by bad police work. The charges were later dropped. It seems the person who attacked me was a body guard to a local drug dealer. To this day I have no idea why I was attacked but I know he went to the hospital after I knocked him out.

My opinion is that the people who say wrap shots won't work in real fights are not correct and also that techniques that may not be authentic to something can certainly be effective.

Based on my observations SCA rattan stick fighters tend to throw more snap shots than wraps so I would disagree that the wrap is an "SCA signature blow".

What is called a "wrap" shot has been used by zulu stick fighters for many years so I disagree that it is not a historical technique.

Incidentally I don't feel the SCA is the best place to learn combative skills involving sword or stick technique because of their apparent prejudice against empty handed techniques. In my opinion empty handed techniques should be included as part of learning how to use weapons.
At some SCA fighter practices where members of the armed services were showing up I have found that a certain amount of cross training was allowed however at other SCA practices I found myself being insulted for simply asking for reasons for their rule set or for even asking for clarification of certain rules.
Just for the record the SCA does not provide official reasons for any of their combative rules.

In my opinion the SCA rule set favors the use of shields and is in fact not that useful for trying to decide which fighter is more skilled than the next. I would also say that people who attend their practices for the reason of learning martial skills instead of competing for social status will probably not be welcome and so I do not recommend them as a place to learn martial skills.

hello everyone,
this is an interesting topic myself as a fighter bounce around from many different styles eastern western reenactment sca etc. while i have no experience in sca (as in ireland its very small and i know those involved) in Europe there is more of a tendency for steel reenactments. i think its the sound really that crowds like.
anyways i digress every style has its merits if we are asking is sca or hema combat the same as actual historic combat no its not. nobody i know of fights to the death its a different ball game. if anyone here has i would love to hear about it.
now im not trying to take away from what people do you all have great skill in your areas.
what i notice in both sca and hema is the lack of fear. your not scare of being hit if you do you can reset if your injured it may be bad but your unlikely to be killed.
anyways i like the post the fat thin fighter thing is not due to the two groups i know many large hema fighters and thin sca fighters and im sure some of you will see the thinner fighters in both groups are better mainly cause they are fitter though not all are.
we all practice different styles i know of some people in Europe who use live blades and have seen people take the field and fight with sharp longswords before people were hurt but not gravely. we all do different things each has its merit but none of us have to fight to the death nor i hope will we. an sca or hema fighter would probably have the same chance in a historic battle.
also there are how would i say some people in both communities who create a negative image but there are also those who do great work that effects us all and if that continues i dont really mind what people do.

now i would like comments from both communities on this video just to see what you think. i have seen a bit of this in eastern europe they have many styles of reenactment combat this being one of them,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=113LB33DLEU



regards
nathan

Alex, nobody is doubting that a wrap against an unarmored opponent can be deadly...the contension is the usefulness of the shot vs somebody in a full norman knight kit. And yes SCA techniques are quite good with a stick...or a mace...but the use of them as a sword technique for somewhat questionable. It's not hitting the right area for armored and it's hitting way too hard for unarmored.

Also you live in oakland...so do you go to the rockridge fighter practice? Because the people there seem pretty interested in WMA there.

[quote="Jean Henri Chandler"]

Quote:

For that matter the SCA "superdukes" if they are really so great I really think one or two of them should enter a couple of HEMA tournaments. Like I said, there are annual open tournaments now held at pretty much every region of the US at some point during the year. Most of the tournaments even allow sword and buckler or sword and shield fighters in the longsword tournaments if you want to try one, sometimes people use them and win. For that matter SCA "superdukes" should also enter open escrima or Jian tournaments they now have, I know there are annual ones now on the West Coast at least where there are plenty of SCA groups and they have similar qualifying rules to HEMA tournaments (i.e. I believe they accept all comers) and have pretty open rules. A few victories or high ranking finishes would be great PR for the SCA. J

Thats funny because when I tried to compete with WMA people at their so called Arming sword tournament using wasters they canceled the contest. I elected not to enter their Kendo stick match since the weapon was obviously too light to represent what they were saying it did and besides they were also banning thrust to the face.

I sparred with an Kali Escrima teacher before after taking a few of his classes. I concluded that his technique was a step backward even from SCA technique because he didn't train to take into account progressively changing attack angles.
In other words he trained to evade attacks mostly with footwork however the attacks needed to be somewhat simple in order for the defensive footwork to be effective. Against the average person with a knife his ideas probably would work fine however.

An Escrima teacher on Youtube was arguing with me that a "major blow with a weapon" can simply be absorbed in such a way that he could tackle his opponent and then knock them out. In my opinion his idea was foolish since a solid shot to the head with most any kind of sword on an unarmored opponent would almost certainly kill or disable an opponent straight away. In fact the teacher I trained with made the same foolish claim so I decided to train with someone else.

I sparred also with an SCA " Duke" a few years back but concluded he was banning empty handed techniques without a valid reason and therefore was obstructing the idea of learning martial skills.

I don't support the idea that contest can or should be used to decide which person is the best at certain types of weapons. To me contest are just another opportunity to spar with someone and that's the only reason I participated in anything like that in the past. The bottom line is that rule sets always favor one person over the next.

Humm that is unfortunate to hear Alex. Do you happen to know who you spoke to? I may have to have a small talk with them about interacting with new people.

On the case of mail armor...your underestimating how good that is against a sword. I tested it out on cored tatami so if there was enough purcussive force, the wood core should have broken...but it doesn't. Yes the knight could switch weapons on the fly and like I said, SCA techniques switched to a mace or hammer is quite effective. But the premise of their matches does not.

I've fought both with rebated steel and SCA armored combat. Personally I've found I prefer the SCA combat due to the level of intensity possible due to the armor and weapon standards. I like not having to constantly worry about not accidentally maiming my opponent. The 3 things I'd like to see change in the sca are, 1 let me hit people in the shins with my greatsword :lol: 2 get rid of the silly knee fighting. Personally I take legs as kills. Fighting with a greatsword as soon as I loose mobility due to a leg hit the fights as good as over exp vs a shield man. Also, in the SCA the assumption is that you are minor nobility (at least) and thus ransom-able, in real life if you'd taken a wound like that you'd be trying to impress on your opponent as quickly as possible your worth more as a prisoner than a corpse. The 3rd change would be to institute clear minimum appearance standards, theres plenty of people in the SCA with nice kits, but that idiot wearing 1/2 a plastic barrel standing next to him ruins it. SCA combat isnt combat anymore than any of the other systems or styles. Its not really "like real combat" unless your trying to kill your opponent, until then its all just a game, pick one with rules you can deal with.

Christopher, I concur with most of your points.

Christopher Punty wrote:

1 let me hit people in the shins

I agree heartily.

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2 get rid of the silly knee fighting

I agree heartily.

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3rd change would be to institute clear minimum appearance standards

This is a rather touchy subject in the SCA as can be seen in lengthy posts on other forums. The SCA Organizational Handbook section II.B states "Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at pre-17th century clothing." The SCA Marshal's Handbook section VI.A states "Special attention should be paid to appearance and the atmosphere of a medieval event should be maintained." That's it as far as a combat appearance directive. :confused:

I currently have a kit that can easily pass the "looks good at 10' rule" which I'm trying to get to a "looks good at 10 cm" level. Almost a decade and a half ago I started in one of those pickle barrel armours with sneakers and a poorly fitting great helm. The balance, I believe, is to welcome and encourage newcomers without demanding a huge outlay in cash for armour right away. Some methods of increasing appearance over a specified time frame have been tossed about. I really have no opinion on the matter since I only worry about what I can control (my kit, my tent, my camp, etc.)

I would like to add grappling to the equation as well, but this is a whole other can of worms that is also hotly debated.

Hi folks

I've been reading this thread with interest and would like to emphasize the point a few of you have made already - its less about the fighting style that the quality of the player. I'll add another - and the quality of the hit.

Just to quickly clear a point - I've never fought SCA and I'm relatively new to WMA but have fought hard style/full contact Eastern martial arts for many years.

I've watched lot of the YouTube fights and few of the blows land cleanly - because your opponent rarely stands still :)
(very wise).

In terms of WMA my instructor often has us in full kit for our period - I'm trying to recreate a gallowglass and he has a mix of plate/brigandine for footsoldier (he jousts). Yet I easily broke his thumb through plate gauntlets with a boken (wooden katana - we were testing out katana v longsword - actually boken v waster) because the shot was clean and precise.

The same applied to close combat - we are both experienced Eastern martial artists and he caught me a good, well controlled punch with a plate gauntlet through my Fiore helmet (Windrose) and it certainly rang my bells. He had a lot of time for any follow-up shot.

A number of other times we've hit one another glancing blows and the gambeson/brigandine easily defeated the blow and no impact was really even felt. In 'reality' we would have just fought through these until someone landed a good shot that incapacitated enough for the follow-ups hit(s) that killed/crippled.

I personally like 'no rule, just some control' style fighting. Partly because it suits my nature (make of that what you will!) but also because I suspect its as close as we can get to what MAY have happened without killing one another.
cheers

mike