Peter Fuller-
The fact that somebody brought up the question and you participated in it with a definitive statement to rebut it is cause enough to make the topic worthwhile. The fact that another person presented opinions and others have vigorously rebutted such opinions as folly also makes it worthwhile. Having a publicly readable account of the question and the answer offers value. Now when the question pops up elsewhere, and I'm sure that it will, you can point them to such an account so as to avoid having to repeat all of it again and again.
OF COURSE this topic is silly. OF COURSE the whole notion is folly. I know that. You know that. Does everyone else know this? No. They do not. People are not born with the knowledge of arms and armour. Some ask questions. Others buy into easily-available myths. Others make stuff up. And others do a lot of work to make sure they have accurate information in their hands.
I, like you, got tired of the same old topics popping up on the 'net filled with misinformation, confusion, and other silly things. What did I do about it? I made this site. I put my money where my mouth is and tried, to the best of my limited abilities, to get worthwhile information in the hands of the enthusiast interested in the subject of arms and armour. For those who are interested in doing something worthwhile and sharing accurate information with the public and fighting the "good fight", I suggest a similar course of action. Heck, I've consistently asked for participation on this site from the community. Should you or anyone else want to help, we have a Submissions Page worthy of your attention. Don't like the same questions being asked over and over and over again? Write an article and get it onto a venue that is readily available to the very same people repeatedly asking these questions. Next time it comes up, point 'em to your article. Problem solved.
Casual enthusiasts, amateur academics, hobbyists, and flat-out-misinformed laymen need people like you to step up and and at least steer them in the right direction. Better still, an active participation in the crusade of bringing quality information to the masses will likely make a stronger impact.
-----
Regardless, it is not appropriate for you to try to quash conversations on this site. Express your opinion on the subject matter, including your opinion of its complete lack of value, but do not attempt to stop others from conversing here. That is not for you to do.
| Peter Fuller wrote: |
| Sorry Chad, but I cannot agree with you. Discussion for the sake of discussion is erroneous.
Say I started a myth that extraterrestrials came to earth and taught medieval armourers how to smelt and temper steel. A lot of people believe in extraterrestrials. But does that mean it is worthy of discussion? No. There's no evidence to support it, and it's just plain silly. But no more silly than the hoist myth. As I said, nobody on this thread has provided a single scrap of evidence to support the hoist myth. It's all been conjecture and speculation; what ifs, and perhaps's. How about if I provide some evidence against it? Let's start with the quote from Shakespeare I gave earlier in this thread. He lived in the age of armour, and anybody who has read him knows that he wrote about what he saw. How about Oliver de la Marche who said that Galliot de Balthasin in 1446 leaped fully armed out of the saddle 'as though he had on a pourpoint only.' Or W. Stokes, in his book "The Vaulting Master" (1641): "In war the nimble avoydance of a man's horse if wounded or killed under him, and in like manner the ready ascent into his enemies saddle if it be his hap to unhorse him..." Need I remind you that this was written when combat armour was at its heaviest. We can also look at the weight of armour; the Churburg #18 is 56 pounds - the famous Pancraz armour in the Wallace Collection is 59 pounds. I could go on, but the weights of armour are well known, and it is not nearly so heavy that it is cumbersome in any way. Also, Jeff Hedgecock wears well made, historically accurate armour when he jousts, as does the likes of Toby Capwell, and many others. You can ask them if they have to be hoisted onto their horses with cranes yourself. In one paragraph I've given more evidence to refute this myth than anyone has provided in faovour of it in this entire thread. But hey, I'm nobody; what do I know? Don't take my word for it. Instead, let's hear what one of the greatest arms and armour scholars of our age, R. Ewart Oakeshott, has to say about this ridiculous myth; "It is sad that the English-speaking world still has to be dogged by this idiotic brain-child of the long forgotten producer of a Victorian farce, and that writers, directors and producers, illustrators and teachers, still perpetuate it as truth, instead of condemning it for the futile nonsence that it manifestly is." He said it much better than I ever could. |
You ask for a refutation, and though I do not have a dog in this fight (Plate? Who cares about plate?) Here is a couple of quotes pointing to the idea that Henry VIII may have been the source of this myth
"Following a jousting accident in 1536, Henry was unable to take exercise and suffered from a painful ulcer which may have indirectly led to his death. This was the reason for his ever-expanding corpulence - during his latter French campaigns, he had to be put on his horse by a crane."
"There was a fairly disastrous war in France which Henry insisted on joining, his diseased body being put on its horse by crane."
though this is about a crane for his bed, perhaps this is where the myth started...
1546. A very ill Henry VIII made his last will, naming Edward as the next king. Henry was so overweight at the end that he had to be lifted into his four-poster bed with a hoist, a type of crane.
Personally I don't have feelings about this myth one way of the other. However, a discussion is not without merit. No one is arguing that it was in anyway common for knights to need to be hoisted. However, I do think there is aleast the possibility of it being true that Henry VIII had to be in his later years, thus giving birth to the legend...
It would be helpful to know where you got the quotes from, Robin. Thanks!
-Gregory-
-Gregory-
Just a couple of net articles on everything.com
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=House+of+Tudor
and headlinehistory
http://www.headlinehistory.co.uk/online/North...meline.htm
I don't have much reference material on this period, since it isn't my period of interest. However in the articles they cite Tudor England by John Guy, History of the English-speaking Peoples vol 2 by Winston Curchill, and Encarta 2003.
If you search around on the net you will find several. Here is another by Tower of London Expert Chris Gidlow on BBC.co.uk
In general, knights could get onto horses by themselves, but when Henry VIII was 53 he had to lead his troops to battle in France. His legs were diseased and he was very overweight by this time, so he, at that point, had to be put on horse by crane. This was not normal though. The weight of armour of a knight was never as much as what a modern combat soldier carries on campaign. At the Tower of London, you can lift up a pack of the modern regimental fusiliers and that's a good 2 kilos heavier than the suits of armour we have got.
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=House+of+Tudor
and headlinehistory
http://www.headlinehistory.co.uk/online/North...meline.htm
I don't have much reference material on this period, since it isn't my period of interest. However in the articles they cite Tudor England by John Guy, History of the English-speaking Peoples vol 2 by Winston Curchill, and Encarta 2003.
If you search around on the net you will find several. Here is another by Tower of London Expert Chris Gidlow on BBC.co.uk
In general, knights could get onto horses by themselves, but when Henry VIII was 53 he had to lead his troops to battle in France. His legs were diseased and he was very overweight by this time, so he, at that point, had to be put on horse by crane. This was not normal though. The weight of armour of a knight was never as much as what a modern combat soldier carries on campaign. At the Tower of London, you can lift up a pack of the modern regimental fusiliers and that's a good 2 kilos heavier than the suits of armour we have got.
If the stories about Henry the VIII are the origins of the hoist " myth " it has little or nothing to do with the weight of armour and only something to do with someone in bad health who would need the help even without the extra weight of armour.
Unless somebody has some fresh or different information I think the subject is getting close to the beating a dead horse stage. ( Or already past that stage ;) )
( Edited: I should add that the information in the last few posts about Henry the VIII's physical condition and the possible origins of the " myth " was very useful and informative and my comment above are just my conclusions based on that information and not meant as a negative rebuttal of that information: Just in case my intent might have been misinterpreted ).
Unless somebody has some fresh or different information I think the subject is getting close to the beating a dead horse stage. ( Or already past that stage ;) )
( Edited: I should add that the information in the last few posts about Henry the VIII's physical condition and the possible origins of the " myth " was very useful and informative and my comment above are just my conclusions based on that information and not meant as a negative rebuttal of that information: Just in case my intent might have been misinterpreted ).
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Wed 26 Sep, 2007 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Yes, the above citations say nothing about armour except for an assumption from the headline.co.uk author. None of this is primary source evidence.
Dead horse......definitely.
Dead horse......definitely.
I actually was dinged in a world history class at Glendale Community College over this a few years ago. The prof. had a PHD from UCLA and was supposedly the be all on the topic. All we did was a mid-term and a final in between watching everything from "Beckett" to "Cromwell" and listened to him prattle about how the Bible was written so kings could control thier subjects.
He was irate at me for pointing out the lack of any evidence for such hoists after he told everyone that a knight needed them and could not get up if he fell in full harness. So yes it is not only still alive, but being taught in colleges.
On a related side note I'm really looking forward to seeing you joust in a few weeks Jeffrey! (Don't forget your hoist!) ;)
Lee
He was irate at me for pointing out the lack of any evidence for such hoists after he told everyone that a knight needed them and could not get up if he fell in full harness. So yes it is not only still alive, but being taught in colleges.
On a related side note I'm really looking forward to seeing you joust in a few weeks Jeffrey! (Don't forget your hoist!) ;)
Lee
Sadly, though I will be on the field and in harness as host and as a marshal, I won't be jousting in the event Oct 27th. You see I hit Steve Mallett too hard in my first course with him at the Tower of London on Sept 1, the lance bit hard and slammed back into my thumb. The impact resulted in a fracture near the base of my first metacarpal, so following surgery on the 14th I sit here with a cast on my right hand and steel pins protruding from my skin. Much to my eternal chagrin, I won't be healed enough by then to risk lance strikes and a potential repeat injury, though I should have the pins out and the cast off by the joust. Unfortunately, the hand doctor wants me to wait 3 months after the cast comes off before any more "contact sports".
I'm still trying to see if I can "sneak" in a couple of courses with my friends during the session, but so far am coming up empty as to how to fit it in. And I'd have to get it past the wife, which would be tricky considering we both pay the doctor's bill and she'll be there front and center.
Good news is, we've secured a date in April for another joust, and unless I break myself again in the team joust at Leeds in March, I'll be out there smashin' wood with the rest of the guys.
Please still come Oct 27th, though. It'll be something to see!!
http://www.worldjoust.com
I'm still trying to see if I can "sneak" in a couple of courses with my friends during the session, but so far am coming up empty as to how to fit it in. And I'd have to get it past the wife, which would be tricky considering we both pay the doctor's bill and she'll be there front and center.
Good news is, we've secured a date in April for another joust, and unless I break myself again in the team joust at Leeds in March, I'll be out there smashin' wood with the rest of the guys.
Please still come Oct 27th, though. It'll be something to see!!
http://www.worldjoust.com
Ow,
Very sorry to hear it Jeffery / Jeff (Do you have a preference? I have heard seen people use both with you and I like to call people as they wish). But there is much to be thankful for especially if the injury is not so bad as to keep you from armouring or jousting in the future!
I and my family will certainly be there. I've been trying to encourage several families from our homeschooling group to attend as well.
Another joust in April you say?
Most excellent.
Now if only such events would become so popular that you would have one or two at the Burbank Equestrian center that would be grand!
Best regards,
Lee
Very sorry to hear it Jeffery / Jeff (Do you have a preference? I have heard seen people use both with you and I like to call people as they wish). But there is much to be thankful for especially if the injury is not so bad as to keep you from armouring or jousting in the future!
I and my family will certainly be there. I've been trying to encourage several families from our homeschooling group to attend as well.
Another joust in April you say?
Most excellent.
Now if only such events would become so popular that you would have one or two at the Burbank Equestrian center that would be grand!
Best regards,
Lee
Hello everyone,
I have been a little out of the loop for the past couple weeks and never imagined how passionate some people could get on aa topic I started.
In response to Randall from earlier, The question was addressed to me after the demonstration while we were packing up. It was not in a formal setting during the demo. She seemed to be so convinced by either what she saw or what she was told in the museum that I at least had to research it a bit further and told her I would get back with her by email to either confirm or deny her comments (which I did).
As we all know some people are quite convincing my their statements and although I was sure I thought I knew the answer, I didn't want to look like a fool saying "it never happened" when there might be a suit on display somewhere that in fact suggests a hoist could have been used for that specific one.
I truely appreciate all the comments here regarding the topic at hand and enlightened her with some of the comments from here (the educated comments at least).
MIke
I have been a little out of the loop for the past couple weeks and never imagined how passionate some people could get on aa topic I started.
In response to Randall from earlier, The question was addressed to me after the demonstration while we were packing up. It was not in a formal setting during the demo. She seemed to be so convinced by either what she saw or what she was told in the museum that I at least had to research it a bit further and told her I would get back with her by email to either confirm or deny her comments (which I did).
As we all know some people are quite convincing my their statements and although I was sure I thought I knew the answer, I didn't want to look like a fool saying "it never happened" when there might be a suit on display somewhere that in fact suggests a hoist could have been used for that specific one.
I truely appreciate all the comments here regarding the topic at hand and enlightened her with some of the comments from here (the educated comments at least).
MIke
By the way, getting back to the original post I see this:
While I was at the British Museum, I did not see suits of armour for the tilt or many medieval armours of any kind, for that matter. The place is big and I very well could have missed them. I'd like to know what armours she saw that spurred her own curiosity on this matter.
| Michael Mercier wrote: |
| Just last night I was doing a fight demonstration and one of the individuals mentioned that exact rumor and she said she saw some suits of armor in the British Museum that had hooks on the back just for that purpose. |
While I was at the British Museum, I did not see suits of armour for the tilt or many medieval armours of any kind, for that matter. The place is big and I very well could have missed them. I'd like to know what armours she saw that spurred her own curiosity on this matter.
Hi Nathan
My guess is they saw this and thought it was for picking the suit up as opposed to its true purpose of supporting the head.
I have had others that told me this was fake because they did not have wing nuts back then. :)
Best
Craig
Attachment: 148.34 KB
My guess is they saw this and thought it was for picking the suit up as opposed to its true purpose of supporting the head.
I have had others that told me this was fake because they did not have wing nuts back then. :)
Best
Craig
Attachment: 148.34 KB| Craig Johnson wrote: |
| Hi Nathan
My guess is they saw this and thought it was for picking the suit up as opposed to its true purpose of supporting the head. I have had others that told me this was fake because they did not have wing nuts back then. :) Best Craig |
That has happened to me a lot. It always cracks me up...then I show them some of the armourers multi tools and ask them to look for the Craftsmen logo. ;)
Lets breed some life into the horse then :lol:
Dom Duarte in 1438 writes about the absoluet NEED for knight to have an use a wooden training ´horse´ in order to be able to swiftly mount a horse wearing full armour without the aid of the stirrups.
He is also very critical about the good life bearing down on knights making them lose this basic skill.
This is about as prime as a source can be: written by a knight who actively fought against the moors, against spanjards, against pirates, in numerous tournaments throughout his life himsélf!
His book ´Bem Cavalgar´ is availeable translated in modern english though amazon.com et al.
hc
Dom Duarte in 1438 writes about the absoluet NEED for knight to have an use a wooden training ´horse´ in order to be able to swiftly mount a horse wearing full armour without the aid of the stirrups.
He is also very critical about the good life bearing down on knights making them lose this basic skill.
This is about as prime as a source can be: written by a knight who actively fought against the moors, against spanjards, against pirates, in numerous tournaments throughout his life himsélf!
His book ´Bem Cavalgar´ is availeable translated in modern english though amazon.com et al.
hc
Perhaps you should begin a new topic, rather than continuing on this one, which is really quite dead as a doornail.
Please, oh please.
Please, oh please.
| Chad Arnow wrote: |
| Perhaps someday someone will write a full, well-researched article on this subject. Then when the question comes up, people can simply be pointed to the article for reference. [snip] [I]t would be a great piece to have available to the general public. |
Well, ask and ye shall receive (eventually :) ): Of knights, cranes, hoists and winches…; the myth of how knights mounted horses. :) I haven't read the article, but the author, Robert Woosnam-Savage (Curator Emeritus of Arms and Armour at the Royal Armouries), very kindly reached out to let me know about it and its acknowledgment of this thread (!). I'm looking forward to reading it.
Sadly paywalled. Shame - I was looking forward to it.
| Anthony Clipsom wrote: |
| Sadly paywalled. Shame - I was looking forward to it. |
It’s true that top level scholarship isn’t free. This will be accessible through certain library systems via a login and/or in print.
| Chad Arnow wrote: | ||
It’s true that top level scholarship isn’t free. This will be accessible through certain library systems via a login and/or in print. |
Not arguing about the pros and cons of subscriptions, just expressing disappointment I can't read it. The situation in the US around public libraries may well be different but you won't find many UK public libraries with subscriptions to academic source collections these days.
Bob is a top chap. If you reach out to him directly, I expect he will be very happy to send over a copy of his paper.
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