Posts: 507
Sun 08 Sep, 2019 10:56 am
Dan Howard wrote: |
No armour breathes. It doesn't matter whether it is made of metal or cloth or leather or kevlar. Leather and cloth are even worse than metal because they start out by being heavier and then they absorb moisture, which makes them even heavier and more onerous. Lice, ants, fleas, and flies love them.
Most of the accounts of people becoming overcome with heat stress in battle would have happened even if they were simply wearing heavy clothing. That heat stress is accelerated by wearing enclosed helmets, not armour. |
Chainmail breathes allot because it is a mesh and it is armor.
Posts: 1,420 Location: New Orleans
Sun 08 Sep, 2019 11:02 am
Dan Howard wrote: |
No armour breathes. It doesn't matter whether it is made of metal or cloth or leather or kevlar. Leather and cloth are even worse than metal because they start out by being heavier and then they absorb moisture, which makes them even heavier and more onerous. Lice, ants, fleas, and flies love them.
Most of the accounts of people becoming overcome with heat stress in battle would have happened even if they were simply wearing heavy clothing. That heat stress is accelerated by wearing enclosed helmets, not armour. |
That's a nice theory Dan - but it's no more than that unless you have some evidence to support it. Same as mine. From my experience, fighting with textile (linen) coat in fencing tournaments, it is hot but it does indeed 'breathe'. Once you have been at it for a while, it gets soaked with sweat (gross I know) but it actually cools you a little. That is just anecdotal so I can't definitively claim that this mirrors any realities 500 years ago but it's the basis of my perception of it.
I do agree though that textile armor is certainly susceptible to rot, insects etc. over time. Medieval jupons, aketons etc. were routinely boiled during longer campaigns to kill the lice.
I don't think leather as armor was as common as people seem to assume in modern times.
Mail, of course, does permit air to pass through it obviously.
Posts: 3,641 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Sun 08 Sep, 2019 3:20 pm
Philip Dyer wrote: |
Dan Howard wrote: | No armour breathes. It doesn't matter whether it is made of metal or cloth or leather or kevlar. Leather and cloth are even worse than metal because they start out by being heavier and then they absorb moisture, which makes them even heavier and more onerous. Lice, ants, fleas, and flies love them.
Most of the accounts of people becoming overcome with heat stress in battle would have happened even if they were simply wearing heavy clothing. That heat stress is accelerated by wearing enclosed helmets, not armour. |
Chainmail breathes allot because it is a mesh and it is armor. |
So how many people do you know who wear mail against their bare flesh?
Posts: 341 Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Mon 09 Sep, 2019 2:00 am
Thanks for the reminder Henry. I knew I'd read a period comment on the subject but I couldn't remember where. :)
It would appear that it was common for men awaiting battle to be "fully armed save for the head" and that tying on of helmets was a sign of imminent action.
Posts: 3,641 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Mon 09 Sep, 2019 2:14 am
Philip Dyer wrote: |
Dan Howard wrote: | Philip Dyer wrote: | Dan Howard wrote: | No armour breathes. It doesn't matter whether it is made of metal or cloth or leather or kevlar. Leather and cloth are even worse than metal because they start out by being heavier and then they absorb moisture, which makes them even heavier and more onerous. Lice, ants, fleas, and flies love them.
Most of the accounts of people becoming overcome with heat stress in battle would have happened even if they were simply wearing heavy clothing. That heat stress is accelerated by wearing enclosed helmets, not armour. |
Chainmail breathes allot because it is a mesh and it is armor. |
So how many people do you know who wear mail against their bare flesh? |
For a long time is was common for mail to be worn directly over clothing. I know guys who wearing short sleeves of a mail shirt over their arms and mail drapes over their neck. Plate armor wasn't worn over bare flesh either. |
And none of them affect heat stress any more than regular clothing. I've done it in the Australian outback and in the tropics. Armour is no more bother than clothing. So long as your head stays ventilated, it doesn't matter what you are wearing.
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Mon 09 Sep, 2019 3:22 am
I agree that armour (except helmet) doesn't add up much to heat in comparison with wearing just gambeson/arming clothes. BUT, armour's weight does fatigue you much more. I know how much longer I can fight with just gambeson and gauntlets compared to full armour even without closed helmet. And it's not because of heat or breathing but because of pure exhaustion. Of course highly trained men can fight much longer in full armour, but equally trained ones with lighter armour could fight effectively much longer.
Posts: 1,525 Location: Sydney, Australia
Tue 17 Sep, 2019 9:49 am
it's an extreme case but theres an account of a man pulled from the battle line at a battle during the wars of the roses, and found to have died of the heat in his plate harness.
and this battle took place in england.. during winter, while it was snowing heavily.
Posts: 3,641 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Tue 17 Sep, 2019 4:20 pm
William P wrote: |
it's an extreme case but theres an account of a man pulled from the battle line at a battle during the wars of the roses, and found to have died of the heat in his plate harness.
and this battle took place in england.. during winter, while it was snowing heavily. |
It was caused by his enclosed helmet, not his armour. The fighting at Towton was intense and prolonged. Many did not have the opportunity to pull back and raise their visors for relief.
Posts: 341 Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Wed 18 Sep, 2019 1:26 am
Dan Howard wrote: |
William P wrote: | it's an extreme case but theres an account of a man pulled from the battle line at a battle during the wars of the roses, and found to have died of the heat in his plate harness.
and this battle took place in england.. during winter, while it was snowing heavily. |
It was caused by his enclosed helmet, not his armour. The fighting at Towton was intense and prolonged. Many did not have the opportunity to pull back and raise their visors for relief. |
Not a story I'd heard before about Towton. Any chance of some details e.g. source or even name of casualty so I can follow up?
Posts: 1,084 Location: Finland
Wed 18 Sep, 2019 11:11 am
Matthew Amt wrote: |
Harry Marinakis wrote: | Remember that the ancient Greeks ran 25 miles in full armor and then beat off a Persian invasion. |
Well, they *marched* to Marathon, camped for several days, then beat the Persians. Immediately after which they marched quickly back to Athens, but the Persians didn't land there.
But yes, they were tough, definitely agree with that!
Matthew |
Of course, according to legend one of them did run back to deliver the good news... and having done that promptly keeled over, dead from exhaustion.
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