Well, bronze is not necessarily made of tin, other metals can also be alloyed with copper to the same effect. Museums use the term "copper alloy" precisely because the composition of historical bronzes and brasses - what would have been collectively called "latten" back then - were highly variable and more or less interchangeable.

Paul Mortimer wrote:

Dan -- VWs and Rolls Royces? Well really!

Honestly, if I drove, I'd rather have a Golf than a Silver Ghost. :)

I never considered the possibility of pure copper rivets. I just assumed that it was a copper alloy of some kind. I was asking why would they use copper alloy and not iron? The galvanic reaction between the two metals would cause corrosion a lot faster. There is no increase in strength. They would increase the cost of the item. The only reasonable explanation seems to be related to decorative purposes.

Dan, I am sure that you could spot the difference at 1,000 metres, perhaps 2,000!

Kel, thank you for your concern, but there is no need to worry. When you post anything on a forum there is always the possibility that there will be criticism and that is fair enough. It's good if it can be couched in a supporting manner and it can be galling if it comes from someone who rarely, if ever, attempts anything themselves --- obviously not the case here, though.

I was aware, too, that there are limitations with my new coat, however, I am very pleased with it and for all the purposes that I will be using it for in the near future, it is very good. It still is a close enough resemblance to surviving examples of mail from my period and a little earlier for me, and many others, to be satisfied. Perhaps one day I will change it for a completely custom made coat. As I explained previously I have attempted to do that before on two occasions, but did not get the response that I had hoped. I also had a lot more funding available then than I do now.

Reconstruction always, or nearly always, involves some compromises, (at least for the 6th and 7th centuries) as long as you are aware of them and don't try to hoodwink anyone, I feel that is perfectly acceptable. Perhaps the nearest that I have come to owning a perfect reproduction is the recreation of the Sutton Hoo Stone (at least the stone part) as that was made using the same stone as the original and period tools and methods. Because it isn't weapon related, I have never posted it on myArmoury. However, we learnt so much from the processes that we wrote a book about it.

I had hoped, too, that there may be a bit more knowledge around about the use of copper/bronze rivets in mail and why they were sometimes used. Perhaps there may be more ideas out there?

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collect...p;partId=1

Quote:

Mail fragment composed of alternate rows of theta-shaped, solid links and smaller, riveted links of round-section wire with circular rivets of copper alloy. At one side is a border of riveted links, all of brass with brass rivets.

Brass rivets in the brass edging rings is also not as common, as most European mail seems to use iron rivets in the latten edges. Here's an example of iron rivets in latten (brass) rings from a German shirt of mail in the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/aa/orig...TS1D1b.JPG

An example in the collection of Wade Allen, possibly of Persian origin.
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-7.html

Quote:

Small piece of Mail. Each ring stamped with parallel lines. Wedge rivets of brass.

I don't think Wade's example actually has wedge rivets, but more of a rectangular or oval shape like those in this Syrian or Iranian shirt in the Met, also with copper-alloy (brass?) rivets in the iron rings and apparent iron rivets in the brass rings at the neck!.
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/aa/original/DP147152.jpg
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/aa/original/DP147153.jpg

Gordon Frye's initial post in this thread indicates copper rivets in some New World Spanish mail, but no one has confirmed this or the provenience of the Museum's holding.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=29088

Jack S. Williams wrote:

By the way, years ago Art Woodward told me that he could always recognize chain mail that had been made during this period in Mexico, as the rivet used were copper or brass, instead of the traditional iron or steel. I remember seeing a shirt of this type once at the Heard Museum, in Phoenix.

Mart - thank you for the links (no pun intended). I can't get the BM one to work but will try another way in soon.

Do you know the dates of any of the samples? The Met one with the lines on the links is intriguing -- it looks like solid and riveted but there is something going on -- perhaps it is the tailoring? The Allen sample resembles it quite closely.
Wow.

It is interesting, too, that they are using copper/brass/bronze rivets in the New World at a such a late date. Perhaps there are advantages in using non-ferrous rivets?

Paul

With regard to the flattened section of the links in Paul's new mail shirt, there is an interesting drawing of the links from Gammertingen on page 50 of the recently published 'Das Frankische Heer der Merowingerzeit' that appear to show very similar link construction with the flattened section.

regards
Dave

There are a number of late 12th and early 13th century references in various chansons of "saffroned" hauberks and byrnies. There has been debate over whether this refers to latten mail, latten borders on mail, or some other sort of latten patterns woven into the mail. It could be that these copper-alloy rivets fit the bill.

From the Hervis de Metz (Garin le Loherain), l. XLV
http://books.google.com/books?id=JYSupMhje0sC...mp;f=false

Quote:

Bone est la coife dou blanc hauberc safré,

http://books.google.com/books?id=tn9WAAAAcAAJ...mp;f=false

Quote:

Frappa Olivier sur son hauberl safrei. Solz las gonelas an brunhas safradas. Roman de Gerard de Rossillon, fol. 32. Sous les gonelles ont cuirasses safrées. Maius haubiers à pans saffrés. Roman du Renart, t.IV, p.359. Nel pot garir escu n'hauberc safré. Roman de Garin, Carpentier, t.111 col. 675

The Tofta coif's riveted rings are almost pure iron, while the rivets are iron with a high phosphorus content. Even though they are both ferrous, the ring and rivet are made from two types of wire. I don't think enough metallurgical study of the rivet alone has been done compared to the ring to reach any definitive conclusions, but it's possible the material for the rivet was chosen for hardness, like other nails.

Alan Williams, notes decarburization around the rivet in several rings. Perhaps heat was applied to the rivet area after the rivet was set? Has Williams ever done analysis of the rivet alone?
http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/..._6.pdf[/i]

Thank you Mart -- I suppose there is a consistency in using iron rivets with the copper alloy rings.
As for the Tofta coif -- the use of high phosphoric iron would help to prevent corrosion in the rivets, which, because they are smaller maybe more vulnerable. That could be for decorative effect, too, as the rivets would stay bright while the iron in the links would be much duller - and as you point out phosphoric iron is usually harder than wrought iron. I suspect, too, that you are right, too, in that not enough work has been done on the metals of the links and rivets -- perhaps it was normal practice to use different materials for different functions. There is certainly quite a lot of evidence that by the first millennium there was quite a sophisticated trade in various irons and that many smiths understood the qualities needed for specific tasks.

Timo, it is very interesting that copper may actually perform better than iron. Certainly a great deal of food for thought. Thank you.

Paul

Copper alloy rivets could be stronger than iron but that doesn't matter much with mail. When the links fail it is almost never because of the rivet. The link itself usually tears.

Eric - you are, of course, correct. I shall take this further when I next see Dr Brian Gilmour of the Oxford University Archaeology Research Lab. We have been having discussions the use of iron alloys during the post-Roman period, but he knows a great deal about other metals in archaeological finds, too. Hopefully, I will meet be seeing him next month.

Paul

I will. Brian has a great deal of experience in looking at finds from many different cultures and time periods, I am sure that he will have some clues as to why they used non-ferrous rivets. I saw him last month, but we were focussed on iron and I never thought to ask him about the mail.