Maybe you could post some pics of it?? I'd love to see it.
Wow -- you go away for a week, and all sorts of great threads start appearing! Some truly beautiful and interesting swords being shown here.
Attached are some photos of my collection -- all are reproductions and most have been shown already in other threads, but here they are just the same.
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Hunting sword and hunting hanger [ Download ]
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Here are some British hangers to completment the French ones already shown. [ Download ]
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ElJay baskethilt and hanger [ Download ]
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[ Download ]
Attached are some photos of my collection -- all are reproductions and most have been shown already in other threads, but here they are just the same.
Attachment: 123.94 KBHunting sword and hunting hanger [ Download ]
Attachment: 108.58 KBHere are some British hangers to completment the French ones already shown. [ Download ]
Attachment: 115.11 KBElJay baskethilt and hanger [ Download ]
Attachment: 110.67 KB[ Download ]
Here is a hanger I bought from the vendor who made the swords for the Williamsburg Governor's Palace. Williamsburg refers to it as a British smallsword. I think it resembles more of a French hanger, but perhaps it was a British hanger made in the French style?? The original has an unmarked blade, so no hints there as to the origin.
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Dating on this hunting sword is a bit iffy, as the style is probably from the mid- to late-17th century. Most examples I've found are dated late 17th/early 18th century. Chances are this is an older reproduction, but it's very hard to tell.
Please see my original topic asking for ID help for additional info, more photos, and examples of similar swords.
Stag-gripped hunting sword with clamshell guard.
[ Linked Image ]
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Click images for full-sized photographs
Please see my original topic asking for ID help for additional info, more photos, and examples of similar swords.
Stag-gripped hunting sword with clamshell guard.
[ Linked Image ]
[ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ]
Click images for full-sized photographs
Chris,
Magnificent! I really like the steel hilted hunting-hanger. And of course you know I am going to gush about the French officer hanger/Epee du Soldat. Its awesome! I'm very envious. Tell me about the balance and length of the blade if you will. The blade is pretty much the same as on my other french hanger, though mine is about 29 inches long. It also has a fluer de lie munitions stamp on it. The hilt does remind me of another French hilted sword that I own.Though the finger loops/pas de an's/arms of the hilt on yours are much fuller. Here is a pic.
Nathan,
Thanks for posting a pic of that hunting sword. I also found the thread very interesting. Did you ever come to a decision on what period it's from?
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Magnificent! I really like the steel hilted hunting-hanger. And of course you know I am going to gush about the French officer hanger/Epee du Soldat. Its awesome! I'm very envious. Tell me about the balance and length of the blade if you will. The blade is pretty much the same as on my other french hanger, though mine is about 29 inches long. It also has a fluer de lie munitions stamp on it. The hilt does remind me of another French hilted sword that I own.Though the finger loops/pas de an's/arms of the hilt on yours are much fuller. Here is a pic.
Nathan,
Thanks for posting a pic of that hunting sword. I also found the thread very interesting. Did you ever come to a decision on what period it's from?
Attachment: 33.49 KB Attachment: 33.75 KB Attachment: 45.42 KB| Glen A Cleeton wrote: |
|
Glenn, I'm glad you posted more pics of your Rose NCO sword. I like it. I am not sure when I implied it was made by Rose, I simply pointed out a similarity that continued in these types well into the 19th century. Cheers GC |
I agree Glen's brass hilted straigth saber has some common features with the Rose, but it is clearly not a Rose's. Rose's has squarish bend in the knuckle bow, for me it is a neoclassical hilt.
Glen' saber is a short weapon, made for the Fench compagnies franches de la Marine* (or Troupes de la Marine). Not the colonial troupes de la Marine, but the companies serving as fusiliers on warships or as garrison in the military ports.
This saber was in used in the 1750's. They a typical short straight and single edged blade with a narrow fuller. Also the profile of button atop of the pommel is typical. I know a few examples in French collections and one from the wreck of the Soleil royal (sank at the Loire's mouth in 1759). There is also one from the basement of a house in Old Quebec, but more than probably the equipment of soldier form a ship and stuck in the city during the siege by Wolfe not from the equipment of a soldier in the colonial troops.
The only one tha comes from North America is yours, but the original proveniance remains unkown.
Here are pics of mine (clickable thumbnails).
I will put pics of my other swords later.
* Indenpendant companies of the Navy
Photos of my civilian iron hilted small sword. Triangular blade shortened :\
Close observation shows remains of gilding in the hollow parts of the shell !
Clickable thumbnails.
Close observation shows remains of gilding in the hollow parts of the shell !
Clickable thumbnails.
| David Ledoyen wrote: | ||
I agree Glen's brass hilted straigth saber has some common features with the Rose, but it is clearly not a Rose's. Rose's has squarish bend in the knuckle bow, for me it is a neoclassical hilt. Glen' saber is a short weapon, made for the Fench compagnies franches de la Marine* (or Troupes de la Marine). Not the colonial troupes de la Marine, but the companies serving as fusiliers on warships or as garrison in the military ports. This saber was in used in the 1750's. They a typical short straight and single edged blade with a narrow fuller. Also the profile of button atop of the pommel is typical. I know a few examples in French collections and one from the wreck of the Soleil royal (sank at the Loire's mouth in 1759). There is also one from the basement of a house in Old Quebec, but more than probably the equipment of soldier form a ship and stuck in the city during the siege by Wolfe not from the equipment of a soldier in the colonial troops. The only one tha comes from North America is yours, but the original proveniance remains unkown. Here are pics of mine (clickable thumbnails). I will put pics of my other swords later. * Indenpendant companies of the Navy |
Thanks very much for posting of your example and some more background on the type. I am still not seeing the example another friend pointed out in Gilkerson's Boarder's Away but your history of them fills in a lot of blanks. I think what he had noticed was of the hilt form in general rather than a specific example but he did very much think it like a short French boarding sword. We can only speculate how it arrived in Arkansas but that is not far from the gulf and there was both migration from Arcadia to the gulf but also some military interests/actions. There were also some troops organized from the south to head to Canada during the 1812 war, so it may even have been brought back south at that time. It is possible I am in denial as to it being a cast steel blade and what I am seeing is simply paring back the oxidation but there are other things I see of the steel that reminds me of another late 18th century blade I have here. Both have a similar crucible thud deadness of tone, while some like wootz and more traditional piled blades ring like a bell.
This one possibly not quite in the 18th century but not more than a few years after the turn of 1800.
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I like that sword very much Glen. The stamp in the blade almost looks like the Eastern "Om" symbol. Is it?
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| Morgan Butler wrote: |
| I like that sword very much Glen. The stamp in the blade almost looks like the Eastern "Om" symbol. Is it? |
Not Indian Hindu but Turkish, Ali. As in ya Ali (Oh Ali) It appears on many weapons including firearms. In that context of weapons "give us strength" or "give us courage". Something like that and there are longer threads than this on some boards regarding the beginning phrases of Ya Ali, depending on common usage and sect.
Walrus ivory and on either side of the 1800 mark.
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http://usera.ImageCave.com/Hotspur/Yataghan/yataghan002.jpg
http://usera.ImageCave.com/Hotspur/Yataghan/yataghan005.jpg
Yataghans go way back in history but this one is from the end of the Janissary period which was abolished by 1826. Later examples of both big and little ear yataghans continued through at least the 19th century. Oriental Arms is a dealer for nice browsing of these. Mine was being neglected and misunderstood by yet another Texan seller. This was from an old list in my first internet window shopping expeditions from a decade or so ago.
Cheers
GC
This has been a great thread. I have really enjoyed seeing swords from my favorite historical period. I have developed a great interest in the late 1600's and the 18th century. I have really appreciated seeing swords that I don't usually get to see. Especially the Epee du Soldats, both antique and repro's. What a treat!
Before I go off to a heinous math class I thought I would fortify myself by posting some pics of a nice mourning smallsword of mine. First half of the 18th century.
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Before I go off to a heinous math class I thought I would fortify myself by posting some pics of a nice mourning smallsword of mine. First half of the 18th century.
Attachment: 6.25 KB Attachment: 10.66 KB Attachment: 20.55 KB Attachment: 20.2 KB| Morgan Butler wrote: |
| Chris,
Magnificent! I really like the steel hilted hunting-hanger. And of course you know I am going to gush about the French officer hanger/Epee du Soldat. Its awesome! I'm very envious. Tell me about the balance and length of the blade if you will. |
Morgan -- the blade is 29 3/4" long and 1" wide at the hilt. I like the proportions, though it is definitely blade heavy with little distal taper. Point of balance is a hair under 5".
When I got the sword, the grip was very long and wrapped with fine copper wire. I did not like the proportions of the hilt, so I shortened the wood grip core by a little more than 1/2 an inch and re-wrapped it using two wire ropes of different sizes as was common with French swords (at least according to Neumann -- I have no first hand data to back that up). I also re-shaped the knuckle bow to accommodate the shorter grip.
Chris
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Chris,
What makes you think it looks like a "French hanger". For me it is a smallsword (with the a la mousquetaire hilt).
I admit I am not confortable with the term "hanger" in general and also specifically when describing French arms. "Hanger" seems to describe any military side arms wheter the style of the blade and and hilt. For me, it is strange so in Neumann's French soldier swords (épées) with straight double edged blades and small sword hilts along with British short infantry sabers under the same "hangers" section.
Thougths?
What makes you think it looks like a "French hanger". For me it is a smallsword (with the a la mousquetaire hilt).
I admit I am not confortable with the term "hanger" in general and also specifically when describing French arms. "Hanger" seems to describe any military side arms wheter the style of the blade and and hilt. For me, it is strange so in Neumann's French soldier swords (épées) with straight double edged blades and small sword hilts along with British short infantry sabers under the same "hangers" section.
Thougths?
| Chris Goerner wrote: |
| Here is a hanger I bought from the vendor who made the swords for the Williamsburg Governor's Palace. Williamsburg refers to it as a British smallsword. I think it resembles more of a French hanger, but perhaps it was a British hanger made in the French style?? The original has an unmarked blade, so no hints there as to the origin. |
Chris,
I forgot to write it is a nice repro. The single fuller in the blade and the low relief ornaments on the hilt makes IMHO a very early 18th model, or even a very late 17th c. one.
I forgot to write it is a nice repro. The single fuller in the blade and the low relief ornaments on the hilt makes IMHO a very early 18th model, or even a very late 17th c. one.
| Chris Goerner wrote: |
| Here is a hanger I bought from the vendor who made the swords for the Williamsburg Governor's Palace. Williamsburg refers to it as a British smallsword. I think it resembles more of a French hanger, but perhaps it was a British hanger made in the French style?? The original has an unmarked blade, so no hints there as to the origin. |
Chris Goerner wrote:
Hmm, interesting. My Epee Soldat is 30 inches and has the narrow type of fuller. It is a somewhat wider at the forte than yours however, and the balance point is about 4 inches from the guard. It doesn't have much distal taper either, or the nice diamond cross-section like the ones that David owns. But it is very well balanced. Somewhat better balanced than my french smallsword with the 17th cen. rapier blade. Though I think the rapier blade is probably of a better quality than the Soldat blade.
| Quote: |
| Morgan -- the blade is 29 3/4" long and 1" wide at the hilt. I like the proportions, though it is definitely blade heavy with little distal taper. Point of balance is a hair under 5".
When I got the sword, the grip was very long and wrapped with fine copper wire. I did not like the proportions of the hilt, so I shortened the wood grip core by a little more than 1/2 an inch and re-wrapped it using two wire ropes of different sizes as was common with French swords (at least according to Neumann -- I have no first hand data to back that up). I also re-shaped the knuckle bow to accommodate the shorter grip. Chris |
Hmm, interesting. My Epee Soldat is 30 inches and has the narrow type of fuller. It is a somewhat wider at the forte than yours however, and the balance point is about 4 inches from the guard. It doesn't have much distal taper either, or the nice diamond cross-section like the ones that David owns. But it is very well balanced. Somewhat better balanced than my french smallsword with the 17th cen. rapier blade. Though I think the rapier blade is probably of a better quality than the Soldat blade.
| David Ledoyen wrote: | ||
| Chris,
What makes you think it looks like a "French hanger". For me it is a smallsword (with the a la mousquetaire hilt). I admit I am not confortable with the term "hanger" in general and also specifically when describing French arms. "Hanger" seems to describe any military side arms wheter the style of the blade and and hilt. For me, it is strange so in Neumann's French soldier swords (épées) with straight double edged blades and small sword hilts along with British short infantry sabers under the same "hangers" section. Thougths?
|
David,
When I used the term "French hanger" I was doing so based on Nuemann's classification. However, I agree with you -- it feels odd to refer to it as a hanger when it has so little in common with most swords of that classification. The French terms are probably better to use as they describe the sword more accurately (and historically). I think Neumann may have used the term hanger more loosely to describe any sword used by a common, unmounted soldier.
Does anyone else have any French Soldat swords? Or perhaps the equivalant from other nations, which I would be very interested to see. I think my English Spadroon varient which I posted earlier was a good example. I know that the British hilt design of that sword was based off the Prussian version of their infantry officer sword.
"The 14th century blade is thought to have been made shortly after Sir James ill-fated trip and is engraved with Douglas family heraldry, inscriptions referring to the heart and a commemorative date of 1331. The sterling silver hilt was made in 1705 by London swordmaker Thomas Vicaridge and attached to the blade which had been in the Douglas family for 400 years by then.
It carries an Imperial crown and a crowned lion rampant between the inscription ‘Pro Rege Et Regno Anno 1331′, and on the other with a similar panel enclosing one of the devices of the Douglas family, a wild man (wodewose) with a heart on his left breast between the inscription ‘For Strength In Stier This [the heart] I Bier’ (for strength in battle this heart I bear)."
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It carries an Imperial crown and a crowned lion rampant between the inscription ‘Pro Rege Et Regno Anno 1331′, and on the other with a similar panel enclosing one of the devices of the Douglas family, a wild man (wodewose) with a heart on his left breast between the inscription ‘For Strength In Stier This [the heart] I Bier’ (for strength in battle this heart I bear)."
Attachment: 25.75 KBMorgan,
Compare the ornaments on the 1705 English silver hilt with those on this 1686 French sword. Mine is very similar but very crude: many casting flaws.
http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/belle/image...chape.html
http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/belle/treasures.html
Compare the ornaments on the 1705 English silver hilt with those on this 1686 French sword. Mine is very similar but very crude: many casting flaws.
http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/belle/image...chape.html
http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/belle/treasures.html
Interesting. It is cruder but I still like it. The knuckle bows are similar, but less ornementation. And of course no extra guard reinforcements.
My Epee Soldat came with a homemade scabbard that was made by the owner but no scabbard drag.. So I put a civil war bayonet drag on the end. It works I suppose. I've looked for a 18th cen brass scabbard drag but no luck.
My Epee Soldat came with a homemade scabbard that was made by the owner but no scabbard drag.. So I put a civil war bayonet drag on the end. It works I suppose. I've looked for a 18th cen brass scabbard drag but no luck.
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