I have a quck question here about two types of swords that I am confused about. What exactly is the difference between a messer and a falchion? I know that Messer is a german name and therefore messers are generally associated with germany while falchions are more universal medieval (in my opinion at least, it may very well be wrong.)

Thank you very much for any help and information that you offer me :) .

Hi Grayson

Good question. I am not sure one could draw a distinct line between the two. I think of them both as generally single edged bladed weapons with some having a slight broadening of the blade as it nears the tip. The messer, as the name implies, is usually identified as those weapons that look more knife like in appearance. Falchions are usually a little more of the tapering wider towards the tip type blade, many with a distinct clipped point. There are weapons I would consider as crossing over the boundary of one or the other and could rightly be called either. The messer does seem to predominate in the northern European regions while the falchion seems to be the term of choice in the west and south. These pieces are a sorely neglected area of study in English texts and a good sampling of these items would add a great deal of knowledge to our ability to distinguish cleanly. If anything my guess would be the Falchion is used in a broader way today than Messer.

The Messer I think is looked at today as a usually straight handled sword with a knife shaped blade and a relatively simple guard often accompanied by a stud on the outer side, sometimes curving forward or back. They can be literally the size of a large knife to a truly large two handed variety. I am less sure if the definition was seen as such in period. When one looks at the dusack play of the manuals and art of the period I think there would have existed side by side items we would think of as falschions and messers, I am unsure wether the users in a given area would have id them differently.

Hope that helps
Best
Craig

What of hilt construction? Is that not a clear means of distinction between the two types? Or is there simply too much crossover even considering that?

Hello all!

Grayson,
I found an interesting bit about messers and falchions in the chapter "The Renaissance Spirit" by Donald J. LaRocca from Swords and Hilt Weapons by Michael d. Coe, et al. This is an excerpt from that book:

Donald J. LaRocca wrote:

Many other sword types flourished in the fifteenth century. The falchion, also known as the malchus or storta, remained popular, although it was generally shorter and sometimes slimmer than the great chopper of the previous two centuries, and a more effective slashing weapon as a result. However, very few of the slender, almost sabre-like falchions survive compared with the shorter variety. Both types were found mainly in Italy and France. A later cousin of the early falchion was the German Grosse Messer, literally "big knife", a very apt description. This had a long, slightly curved, single-edged blade, straight quillons - frequently with a side ring or lug on the quillon block - and a handle resembling an enlarged knife grip. Its use, and the use of related types, was generally confined to Germanic and Scandinavian countries. Other curved swords, or something approaching the sabre proper, were uncommon before the sixteenth century.

I'm not saying that this is the definitive source for this sort of information, but I found it to be intriguing.

I hope you found it interesting!

Please see this topic for further information.

Peter Johnsson wrote:

Just some further details, A Messer is defined from the construction of its grip rather than outline, size or type of its blade. They come in many shapes and sizes. Short and pointy, short and broad, straight , curved long and slim or long and broad. Some are long two hand weapons and are usually refered to as war knives (Kriegsmesser) shorter ones are called "big knives" (Grosse messer) Grips are made like (surprise!) knife grips: two slabs riveted on a wide flat tang. It is worth noting that the grip construction is sometimes hidden as the grip might have a leather covering wrapped around completely. This I have seen on a few of the big war knives in the Wienna armoury. I do not know how common that feature was, but I think the norm was visible grip scales (wood, horn or bone) and exposed tang. (The grip scales can have separate leather cover as well). Pommel is a cap or curved plate adding very little weight in the way of counter balance. It is the distribution of weight in the blade and tang that induces the handling and performance of these weapons. Normally they are not that heavy. There are monster versions of huge size and weight, but most have nimble and quck blades, despite being broad and impressive in profile. A feature often found on the hilts is the protective lug or ring that has been commented on earlier in this thread. When it is a lug it often doubles as a rivet to secure the cross guard in place. If you mount a blade of messer type in a sword type hilt, you get a Falchion.

I like Peter's definition a lot and it does allow for some flexability, the Stortas were some of the examples that I would see as being close to cross over weapons. Do not have time to grab pics at the moment but knowing Nathan there are some in the galleries ;)

Happy New Year
Craig

Hello again!

Nathan,

Thanks for the link to the thread. It was interesting. I think we do get hung up on names and classifications sometimes, though, and it can detract from the fun of the study of arms and armour. Ask ten different experts or scholars a question about some of this stuff, and you sometimes get ten different answers.

I can see Peter Johnsson's point about hilt construction; and it makes perfect sense. Since messer basically means knife, and knives were typically constructed with rivetted scales on the grip (think a typical steak-knife), it's a logical conclusion to call a weapon with rivetted scales as a grip a messer.

I personally think the single-edged messers with a curved blade, or a curved cutting edge, do bear a familial resemblance to the falchion. I don't believe it's too far off the mark to call these particular messers "cousins" of the falchion.

By the way, for anyone who hasn't seen the work, Hans Talhoffer's professional fencing manual of 1467, published in a translated and edited version by Mark Rector as Medieval Combat: A Fifteenth-Century Illustrated Manual of Swordfighting and Close-Quarter Combat, has plates depicting combat with messers (Plates 223-30). The messers shown are similar to the sort of messer as described in the chapter by Donald J. LaRocca in Sword and Hilt Weapons.

Here's a link to a thread with some talk about certain types of messer, with some pictures of historical examples and replicas:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=messer

And here's a link to a site that has the plates from Talhoffer showing combat with messers, with a translation:

http://www.schielhau.org/talmesser.html

Stay safe!

This might not be the thread for it perhapse, but someone should post some pictures of original messers, broad-bladed grosse-messers especially. I personally have found almost only art/illustrations of those.

Hello all!

Here's an interesting link to a page with some nice photos of actual period falchions:

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm

And this link to the review here on myArmoury has some nice period depictions of falchions:

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_mrl_falc.html

And here's a link to an interesting image from a 14th century manuscript in the British Library showing some falchions in use by knights:

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary/...&idx=2

Just a question about when messers are first known to be in use as the design of at least the pre-production Albion one seems late Medieval or Renaissance in style ? ( 1450 - 1550 ? )

I wonder if falchions were in use before the first known use of messers ? There seems to be some overlap when both were in use. ( At least that is the impression I get from the previous posts. )

If there were some very early messers did these early ones have simpler slab handles ? Or were they just pre-messer large fighting knives related to the seax ?

Very early falchions ? 1050 or even earlier ?

So to summarize: What are the time lines of each ?

Hello all!

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Very early falchions ? 1050 or even earlier ?

Hi Jean!
I've been on so long today that my eyes are bugging out of my head, but let me try to answer this question based on what I've found in my library...

Here's what Claude Blair said about falchions in European & American Arms:

Claude Blair wrote:

Curved swords seem to have been uncommon in medieval Western Europe prior to c. 1500 and virtually unknown before the end of the fourteenth century except for the special form known as a falchion. This was probably derived from the late Scandinavian long sax. a weapon that survived into the second half of the twelfth century. The sax had a blade with a single cutting edge that was either straight or shaped to a long, shallow, convex curve; the back was straight, or very slightly concave, except toward the top where it either curved or was cut off at an angle to form an acute point with the edge. The falchion, which was in use at least as early as c. 1200, had a blade that was basically of similar form to the above but the covex curve of the edge was much pronounced towards the top, so producing a broad, cleaver-like appearance. The "point" of the back too often took the form of a long, shallow scooped-out section. From the late-fourteenth century the blade tended to become quite curved, possibly under influence from Eastern Europe where curved swords had been in use from an early date. .. The hilt of the falchion followed the same line of development as that of the contemporary long-sword.

In the slightly later The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms & Weapons, Claude Blair and Leonid Tarassuk give a slightly later date for the early appearance of the falchion:

Blair and Tarassuk wrote:

It was in use in northern Europe at least as early as the 13th century and throughout the 14th and 15th centuries. Its origins cannot be accurately pinpointed, even though there is much backing for the theory that it derived from the SAX of northern Europe, with which it had many features in common, particularly the broadening of the blade toward the point...

Anthony North also hints at the thirteenth century as the time the falchion came into fashion. Here's what he said in the chapter "Barbarians and Christians" in Swords and Hilt Weapons by Michael D. Coe, et al:

Anthony North wrote:

...a type of sword which appears to have been relatively common in the thirteenth century, judging from manuscript illustrations, was the falchion, a broad cleaver-like weapon. Interestingly falchions are nearly always shown being brandished by pagans. Perhaps the illustrators were trying to show the curved, broad-bladed swords used by the Saracens - some falchions are indeed very similar to Near Eastern eapons. The type is excellently represented by the Conyers Falchion from Durham Cathedral in northeast England....This very fine weapon was almost certainly made for Richard of Cornwall, King of the Romans, between 1257 and 1272, and is probably English work...

I'm not sure about North's statements claiming a Near Eastern influence, but the falchion was indeed seen in manuscripts, and was in use, by the 13th century. Some of the "choppers" from the Maciejowski Bible could be some sort of falchion, or at least a falchion-type weapon.

Here's what Ewart Oakeshott says about the falchion in The Archaeology of Weapons:

Ewart Oakeshott wrote:

(The falchion) was a development from the old Norse sax, particularly the long Norwegian sax, which was popular all over Europe during the eleventh and twelfth centuries, as we can see by its frequent appearance in manuscript paintings. During the thirteenth century its form altered considerably: the blade became extremely broad at its "optimal striking point". This is clearly shown in many pictures, but there are at least two surviving examples as well. One of these was found in 1861 on the site of the Chatelet in Paris, and bears the arms of the Grand Chatelet upon its bronze pommel. The other is a much finer weapon, and is kept in an almost perfect state of preservation in the Library of Durham Cathedral...it is unlikely that it (the Conyers/Durham Falchion) was ever used for fighting...its form suggests a mid-thirteenth century date... The blade of the falchion from Thorpe differes from the Durham and Chatelet ones, for it is very similar to a sabre blade. How this blade form developed is not very clear; we rarely see it in manuscript pictures before about 1290, and it seems to have no direct kinship, like the Durham type, with the old Norwegian long sax... ...the Durham type is seen no more after about 1300.

I know the above quote was disjointed; I tried to cut-out some of the extraneous information not necessarily pertaining to the history of the falchion as a weapon type. I hope everyone can still follow the basic meaning. Even with falchions, there are different types that arose at different times. In A Knight and His Weapons, Oakeshott showed a drawing of a falchion of circa 1250 from the Collection of Mr. Harold Peterson, Arlington, Virginia, that had a concave cutting edge! This bears an interesting resemblance in blade form to the Viking sax of circa 850 that Oakeshott illustrates on the facing page of the same work.

I hope this was helpful information!

Hello again!

I've found some interesting information about falchions in Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350: Western Europe and the Crusader States by David Nicolle. It seems to support the view of falchions as being something that were developed in the 13th century, with some precursors in earlier centuries.

Nicolle gives some possible definitions for period arms & armour terms in his glossary. Some of the proposed meanings may be a bit speculative, but I found these to be of interest:

David Niccole wrote:

Falces (ML) probably early form of falchion; England (Assize of Arms of 1252), mid-13th century. Fauchart (OF) large-bladed weapon or sword used by infantry; France, late 12th century. Fauchon (OF) early form of single-edged falchion, generally an infantry weapon; France, mid/late 13th century. Faus, faussal (OF) unclear form of hafted infantry weapon, probably associated with faussar or later falchion; France, 13th century. Fausser, fausart (OF) unclear form of infantry weapon probably with a short haft; also as faussar de cor ("of horn") or as fausart trecant ("cutting fausart"); France, late 12th century.

Some of these names may be applied to early forms of the falchions or falchion precursors, perhaps similar to the "choppers" seen in the Maciejowski Bible.

This same work by Nicolle also presents many line drawings and brief descriptions from various examples of period art. This is what I found regarding falchions and possible falchion precursors (I've left out most information not pertaining to the source and falchions specifically):

David Nicolle wrote:

Beatus Commentaries on the Apocalypse from St. Sever, Duchy of Gascony, 1028-72 (Bib. Nat. , Ms. Lat. 8878, Paris, France) One of the unusual features is, however, an early version of a falchion, a single-edged sword with a curved cutting edge and, often, an angled back. This early type has no quillons or pommel and in some respects looks like a cut-down glaive or bill. Yet it does have the main characteristics of the falchion, namely that the blade broadens rather than tapers from the hilt. "Flight into Egypt", carved capital, Duchy of Burgundy, c. 1120-30 (in situ Cathedral, Autun, France) Joseph's weapon appears to be another example of a large, single-edged blade mounted on a short thick haft. Such a weapon could have evolved out of the single-edged, but long-hafted, so called "war-scythe" and may in turn have evolved into the 13th century falchion. Carved Relief from Porta Romana, Lombardy, 1167 (Sforza Castle Museum, Milan, Italy) One clearly has an early form of falchion similar to a weapon on a comparably dated carving from Burgundy. Maciejowski Bible, Paris, c. 1250 (Pierpont Morgan Library, New York, United States) Another type of long-bladed weapon is frequently illustrated in the Maciejowski Bible. It seems to be an early form of falchion and, being in the hands of the "good" more often than the "evil", may be assumed to represent a real weapon in current use. It can have a simple angled or fancifully decorated back to the blade. A sharply-curved grip (on one example) is presumably designed to counteract the centrifugal force of swinging such a massive weapon. Another example has a lengthened two-handed grip. Comparable weapons with straight backs and curved cutting edges have short hafts. Lost wall-paintings of the "Painted Chamber" in Westminster Hall, England, late 13th century (ex-Hewitt) Another part of the wall painting illustrates a warrior in a segmented or framed war hat wielding a curved falchion with double-curved quillons. Wall-paintings, Duchy of Spoleto, c. 1280-90 (in situ Upper Church of St. Francis, Assisi, Italy) A number of interesting weapons are illustrated in the wall paintings of the Upper Church, including a long-bladed, long-hafted axe which might be termed a guisarme as well as a curved form of falchion. Apocalypse of St. John, probably Paris, c. 1300 (ex-Oakeshott, The Archaeology of Weapons) The warrior wields a true falchion of exaggerated size. "Martyrdom of St. Thomas Becket", Ramsey Abbey, East Anglia, c. 1300 (Pierpont Morgan Library, Ms. 302, New York, United States) ...a warrior in the background has a partially obscured round-topped great helm. This man appears to be wielding a double-curved falchion. The Cloisters Apocalypse, Duchy of Normandy, c. 1300-25 (Cloisters museum, Metropolitan Museum of Art, no. 68.174, New York, United States) An acutely tapered sword and a curved falchion are clearly illustrated... The Courtrai Chest, Flanders, c. 1305 (New College, Oxford, England) Other armaments used by the Flemish infantry are swords and bucklers and heavier falchions. St. Omer Psalter, East Anglia, c. 1330 (British Library, Ms. Yates Thompson 14, f.7, London, England) This weapon appears to be midway between an European falchion and an eastern sabre. If it ever existed in reality it could be regarded as a development of the normal falchion.

I tried to put these in roughly chronological order. I've also left out a couple examples from well into the 14th century. Some of these representations in period art might not fit with some definitions of a falchion, since some lack a "typical" sword hilt, but I believe they can show us the "evolution" of the falchion. It appears that many "falchion-like" weapons arose in the 12th and 13th centuries, until the falchion took its more recognizable form of a broad, curved blade with a "typical" sword hilt.

I hope somebody found this information interesting; it took me forever to look it up and type it in!

Goodnight!

Richard;

Thanks for all that research: By some strange coincidence I just bought this book from Chad but I haven't done more than skim it so far. :blush: Seems like an even better buy than I first thought. :lol:

The thing with the messer that Peter has designed for Albion is that it seems to me to be the fully developed kind with very complex as well as attractive hilt assembly with all sorts of interesting bevels and I was wondering about early versions that might be less sophisticated ?

I never paid much attention to these before but the prototype pics on the Albion site are very " tempting " ( If not now, eventually. ) http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...photos.htm

Hello all!

Jean,

David Nicolle's Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350: Western Europe and the Crusader States is not a book for the beginner in the hobby of arms and armour (which you're certainly not - not if you've had the Paul Martin book since it was first published), but it does cover a vast amount of material. It's also not an easy book to use; the captions are listed separately in the first part of the book, and the line-drawings are in the second part. His drawings also lack some detail, but they are based directly on actual period art, and a few surviving pieces. Used in conjunction with the captions (a tricky task due to the setup of the book) they can be useful. Nicolle has looked at a tremendous amount of material, and even if you disagree with some of his conclusions, it's nice to have a reference that covers these things. I hope you get as much use out of your copy as I have gotten out of mine! (My copy has tape reinforcing the spine because it started to tear; that's how much use it's gotten!)

I find the blade on Albion's forthcoming messer that you linked to very interesting. It definitely is a falchion-type weapon with a knife-type hilt. I don't know if some of these messers seem fully developed because they sprung up, in part, from the more traditional, sword-hilted falchions, or if there is another factor involved. I've already posted all I could find in my personal library about messers, and this apparently only covers one type. Some of the earlier falchion-type weapons may have had a knife-type hilt (a grip with scales rivetted on the tang), but I'm just speculating. I tried to find more about messers, but came up empty. Perhaps what some of the scholars and researchers call falchions in their works would really be called messers according to Peter Johnsson's definition, who knows? (Most definitions of falchions I've encountered place more emphasis on the blade-shape than the form of the hilt, and some of what Nicolle called falchions or possible falchions had hilts somewhat different from the typical sword hilt.)

Maybe someone else can find some information regarding early messers. When were the terms kriegsmesser and grosse messer first used to describe certain weapons?

Stay safe!

Stay safe!

Hello again!

Here's a link to a thread here on the myArmoury forums that has some nice pictures of the "choppers" from the Maciejowski Bible, as well as a related weapon from The Romance of Alexander in the Bodleian Library:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=chopper

And more from The Romance of Alexander:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=chopper

And yet more from the Maciejowski Bible and other sources:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=chopper

Notice that the hilts of many of these could fall under Peter Johnsson's definition of a messer. I personally believe they do have a familial connection to the more traditional 13th and 14th century sword-hilted falchion.

Thanks Richard for all the info. I was tryting to put some of that and some images together but did not have enough time.

Here are two specific examples

Leaf 11 in the thread you id as Chopper could I think be seen as a messer of early form

and this piece which is knife/chopper type

Best Craig

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Richard;

Thanks again for all the research. :cool: One way I look at things is to forget what it's called, was called, disputes about what we call them and just look at these things as form follows function: All the choppers, falchions, messers are related as far as how they would function and would be used.

At the extreme we could even compare some far eastern weapons that are completely not in any line of evolution with the above but handle / work the same way.

Just a different approach ( less historical / more design ) and in no way critical of the other approach emphasizing the historical approach and trying to discover the degree that these different designs are directly related i.e. evolved from a common source or simply coexisted as similar design solutions to the same problem. ( I find both interesting. )

I may be rambling here it's just that I like to look at things from different angles and it might stimulate more discussion.