Hmm... Don't have much to add to this conversation, really.... I would add that I've heard more than a few grumbles from folks over time that some of the lower end Chen katana were becoming too thin and light for heavy usage. Whether it is true, I can't say, but some folks whom I trust suggest it is, so I'd say keep in mind that the kat in question may not be the norm either.... Not saying it is or isn't, myself... just pointing out that I've heard such in passing.
In any case, as others have pointed out, it is somewhat a matter of preferences, too. I like a heavier nose on my swords, with a slight bit more blade heaviness than most. So, I'm used to swords that are heavier and don't find them particularly unwieldy.... To be fair, I won't compare the things I've handled to the katana, though, as that is no my focus nor my area of experience...
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
|
Preferable for what? This is far too vague for me to answer, personally. Maybe somebody else will take this, but I dunno. |
preferable against the other. Which would you prefer if you had to face someone of equal talent wielding the choice that you didn't choose.
I guess what fascinates me is this whole weight issue. Some people prefer heavier blades, and this makes me curious. I come from a Taekwondo background, and in one tournament I fought against a smaller weaker opponent but he was faster and therefore scored more points and even kicked me in the head at one time.
So when people say they prefer a heavier blade I don't quite understand. If two swords were equal in length and type but one was heavier in the blade, why would you choose the heavier one? I assumed it was to crush through armour, another assumption would be to improve strength of swing - but is that the real reason? Wouldn't the faster sword parry faster, recover faster, swing faster and therefore hit faster? Or is armour the whole issue here? I assume if armour was not involved, then it doesn't matter to use the heavier cutter.
But anyway back to the other question I meant - in a face-off between two fighting styles and you get the first pick - would you choose a longsword or the 1 handed sword and shield? In the videos - all of them wielded 2 handed swords, what would happen if one of them was skilled in shield and sword, whilst the other hand the 2 handed sword? What are the pros and cons?
thanks for the discussion!
| Joe Fults wrote: |
|
Fast rapier or smallsword? The Rob Roy example is a smallsword and IMO against a longsword it gives up reach, power, and deflection ability for the possibilty of a speed advantage in some but not all situations. However, the smallsword is much easier to carry around town and at court. It a question of what is important to you as an individual. Also note, many rapiers were heavier than longswords. |
thanks for the answer. What is a "small sword" or a "short sword"? I was thinking of a "Knightly Sword" which is about 30" blade and has only room on the hilt for one hand. Is a "knightly sword" the correct term? Your comments about the small vs longsword are noted - but what if the opponent with the "small" sword had a shield? Technically he would have the deflection advantage - and now he also has the strike advantage - or does he?
In Martial Arts, the mixed martial artist will tell you what types of martial arts he will use against another opponent based on the opponent's fighting style. I assume in European Swordsmanship that a skilled practitioner ought to know what's the benefit of this sword vs that sword - which is what I'm after.
Many people have said that they would pick this sword in this circumstance, and that sword in some other circumstance and obviously those choices come with reasons much like the mixed Martial Artists decides which style to use to counter his opponent. Thus: longsword vs knightly sword and shield - what does everyone prefer and why?
(and the "vs" means "versus" which means if you are facing an opponent wielding the other weapon)
Any thoughts?
thanks!
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
| thanks for the answer. What is a "small sword" or a "short sword"? |
Check out our features section for the beginner's info. In particular, the Forms of European Edged Weaponry might be a good place to start. You won't find terms like "shortsword" or "longsword" because they're a bit sketchy in their definitions. Many of the other articles on the site really talk about the development of the sword and really cover all the huge diversity of things that affected it.
Regarding your question: I'd first ask if warriors with single-hand sword and shields saw combat against those with longswords. After that, it would then lead one to ask how these encounters ended. From there, you can start to judge how swords developed, what forces affected their development, and what targets/adversaries they saw. That's probably the best place to start.
Otherwise, we might start asking, "What would you prefer: A 10mm Glock or a Halberd?" These questions are somewhat pointless without defining a proper context and whatnot. That's just my two cents. There are lots of topics on other forums regarding "this vs. that" that end up being pretty pointless when all is said and done. You can search for them and read them if you want, but they generally lack any real value.
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
|
preferable against the other. Which would you prefer if you had to face someone of equal talent wielding the choice that you didn't choose. |
I'd choose which one I was more comfortable and familiar with. In this case, it would be a longsword, because that is what I am currently studying. When you are familiar with a weapon, you obviously know what it is and is not capable of, its mechanics, and so on. So, that being said, I would take a longsword up against a sword-and-shield, another longsword, sword and buckler, or any other weapon simply because I know how a longsword handles and what to do with it. Others may choose a sword-and-shield, because that is what they know, and others may even choose a rapier.
| Quote: |
|
I guess what fascinates me is this whole weight issue. Some people prefer heavier blades, and this makes me curious. I come from a Taekwondo background, and in one tournament I fought against a smaller weaker opponent but he was faster and therefore scored more points and even kicked me in the head at one time. So when people say they prefer a heavier blade I don't quite understand. If two swords were equal in length and type but one was heavier in the blade, why would you choose the heavier one? I assumed it was to crush through armour, another assumption would be to improve strength of swing - but is that the real reason? Wouldn't the faster sword parry faster, recover faster, swing faster and therefore hit faster? Or is armour the whole issue here? I assume if armour was not involved, then it doesn't matter to use the heavier cutter. |
The weight thing may be getting confused a bit with a PoB further up the blade. I used to own the Black Prince sword by Arms and Armor, which was a very fast and agile sword. It surprised me to no end that the total weight of the sword was 3.5lbs. The reason it was so responsive was because the point of balance was only ~2" from the cross. Now, with the PoB so close to the cross, it facilitated the use of the point to thrust, rather than to cut. It could cut, but not as well as a Crusader's sword.
Which brings me to my next point, which Rabbe touched on earlier, which is that swords balance at different points to do different things. Swords that balance towards the point are generally made to facilitate a cut, because the mass of the blade helps the weapon to do its work. Weapons such as this, in my experience, usually have an auxiliary defence, such as a shield or a buckler (in later periods even with a dagger), or your feet. You strike with the weapon, and defend with your shield or by evading. Swords with a balance point closer to the hilt are better able to thrust esp. into the gaps between plates of armour, but may not be able to cut as well as a sword with a PoB further up the blade. Combine the PoB in both cases with edge geometry. The blade on a "knightly" sword is typically thinner in cross-section and more flexible, while a "longsword"* typically has a thicker cross-section and stiffer blade so that it can thrust (*longsword in quotation marks because in this instance I am talking about the later longsword, the spada a dui mani (the sword to be used in two hands, used by Fiore dei Liberi to facilitate the thrust)....there were certainly longswords from earlier times, such as Albion's Duke, but their cross-section is very similar to the blade on a "knightly" sword)
Quicker swords will usually be either lighter or have a PoB closer to the hilt than a "heavier" sword. If lighter, the weapon could just as easily be displaced by a heavier sword if trying to parry. There's momentum behind a heavier sword's blow, and the quicker sword, if lighter, may not be able to parry away the blow as easily as you may imagine. Similarly, hitting "faster" with a lighter/quicker sword may not get you to the end you desire. Sword cuts are different than kicks from a Tae Kwon Do opponent (not saying I would want to be kicked ;) ). Your analogy of your TKD experience is similar to my experience as a former sport fencer. A lighter foil may be able to evade around a heavier epee and hit the opponent quicker, but in the end, the hit is just a point, not the end to a fight.
I hope my answer makes sense and hasn't confused you even more.
Alex,
To have a chance to answer the question you are asking, you are going to have to read and ideally find a WMA study group and try some techniques. When you do that you WILL be surprised.
There are misconceptions that will not be dispelled until you do some work at speed with intent. Start sparring and you will be stunned at the number of times your novice skills accomplish nothing other than getting yourself and your opponent killed instantly. In my limited longsword experience, most bouts are very short with somebody landing a killing or crippling blow in the first, second, or third exchange. Everything happens fast.
The point of all of this?
To form your own opinion.
If you look at most of the answers in this thread, most basically say its a matter of preference or opinion. Perhaps that seems a bit evasive to you since you seem to want something definitive? Yes some weapons enjoy advantages over others according to the Masters from whichever school, period, or region you choose to work from. However, IMO if you don't know how to use the weapon in question and exploit its advantages, those advantages will be largely negated. Also IMO, based on the admittedly very limited study I've completed, I honestly believe there is no always right answer. Only an answer that works for you based on what you know. AND it will change over time and with exposure to new things.
To have a chance to answer the question you are asking, you are going to have to read and ideally find a WMA study group and try some techniques. When you do that you WILL be surprised.
There are misconceptions that will not be dispelled until you do some work at speed with intent. Start sparring and you will be stunned at the number of times your novice skills accomplish nothing other than getting yourself and your opponent killed instantly. In my limited longsword experience, most bouts are very short with somebody landing a killing or crippling blow in the first, second, or third exchange. Everything happens fast.
The point of all of this?
To form your own opinion.
If you look at most of the answers in this thread, most basically say its a matter of preference or opinion. Perhaps that seems a bit evasive to you since you seem to want something definitive? Yes some weapons enjoy advantages over others according to the Masters from whichever school, period, or region you choose to work from. However, IMO if you don't know how to use the weapon in question and exploit its advantages, those advantages will be largely negated. Also IMO, based on the admittedly very limited study I've completed, I honestly believe there is no always right answer. Only an answer that works for you based on what you know. AND it will change over time and with exposure to new things.
Yes. Those swords were made with real sword weight and balance. So what you see in the speed is very close to what you see when wielding the real sword. Again, as I said, Anthony wasn't using full power with the claymore when hitting his master... but you can still see the advantages he had with the claymore.
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
| Hi Lancelot,
Great video!! A fantastic visual demonstration of what I was asking about. A question though: are those swords accurate as far as weight and balance are concerned? thanks. |
Alex,
My suggestion... next time when you raise questions, try to use some smoother wordings in oppose of saying something handling like park meter and something is lightning fast ... people here are generally not keen on such extremely subjective wordings. :)
As to answer your other questions, would a longsword preferred or the sword and shield preferred? You have to look into the history of sword evelopment. The sword and shield came before the armor was good enough to let the combatant use both hands on the sword. That means the long sword came later when the armor was better. Then the longsword combat for unarmored situation developed to pinnacle as well.
Now if you are talking armored combat, the long sword maybe very suitable. If unarmored, the long sword will still hold its place well. But I've seen a guy here who can take on 2 single swords user simultaneously and still win most of the time. If you ask me if I can do the same with my bastard sword? I tried, and lost most of the matches except few. Add to the fact that the shield will be handy when dealing with the projectiles on the battlefield, it's highly versatile.
Then there is environment circumstances, the ease of carrying and many other factors to consider. So there is no simple answer to these questions.
Since you are interested in getting answers from videos, be it East vs East, East vs West, or West vs West, you may take a look at my video gallery:
http://www.rsw.com.hk/videos.htm
The sparring videos are below the test cutting videos.
[ Linked Image ]
http://www.rsw.com.hk/lvj17-10-04.zip
13.2mb mpg format
This is one long sword vs sword and shield fight. I was on the left side.
[ Linked Image ]
http://www.rsw.com.hk/jm.zip
12.6mb mpg format
1 sword and shield vs 2 single sword users
Moreover, you can find my video fighting the Seoul champion here. He was using katana and I was wielding a bastard sword that is shorter than most long sword out there.
http://www.rsw.com.hk/activities2.htm
[ Linked Image ]
http://www.rsw.com.hk/jl.zip
32.5mb mpg format
You'll notice I emphasize on cutting fine targets while he liked to hit big targets. That doesn't mean I never hit his head, shoulder and he never hit my fingers. Just a different emphasis.
My suggestion... next time when you raise questions, try to use some smoother wordings in oppose of saying something handling like park meter and something is lightning fast ... people here are generally not keen on such extremely subjective wordings. :)
As to answer your other questions, would a longsword preferred or the sword and shield preferred? You have to look into the history of sword evelopment. The sword and shield came before the armor was good enough to let the combatant use both hands on the sword. That means the long sword came later when the armor was better. Then the longsword combat for unarmored situation developed to pinnacle as well.
Now if you are talking armored combat, the long sword maybe very suitable. If unarmored, the long sword will still hold its place well. But I've seen a guy here who can take on 2 single swords user simultaneously and still win most of the time. If you ask me if I can do the same with my bastard sword? I tried, and lost most of the matches except few. Add to the fact that the shield will be handy when dealing with the projectiles on the battlefield, it's highly versatile.
Then there is environment circumstances, the ease of carrying and many other factors to consider. So there is no simple answer to these questions.
Since you are interested in getting answers from videos, be it East vs East, East vs West, or West vs West, you may take a look at my video gallery:
http://www.rsw.com.hk/videos.htm
The sparring videos are below the test cutting videos.
[ Linked Image ]
http://www.rsw.com.hk/lvj17-10-04.zip
13.2mb mpg format
This is one long sword vs sword and shield fight. I was on the left side.
[ Linked Image ]
http://www.rsw.com.hk/jm.zip
12.6mb mpg format
1 sword and shield vs 2 single sword users
Moreover, you can find my video fighting the Seoul champion here. He was using katana and I was wielding a bastard sword that is shorter than most long sword out there.
http://www.rsw.com.hk/activities2.htm
[ Linked Image ]
http://www.rsw.com.hk/jl.zip
32.5mb mpg format
You'll notice I emphasize on cutting fine targets while he liked to hit big targets. That doesn't mean I never hit his head, shoulder and he never hit my fingers. Just a different emphasis.
this is all great stuff! Thanks to all who replied. I realize my posts were a little vague but the answers are sufficient for now. I've learnt a lot about the longsword, and it seems it has a lot of fans here! I also tried wielding my Lady Carmen like the video with my left hand around the pommel (rather than closer to the right hand) - and it does wield noticeably faster. I really do like this sword, and it's clear that it is made very well. Sure the questions may have been painful, but a lot of education has been learnt in a short time. And the videos rock too.
cheers.
cheers.
I think we have the advantage ( or disadvantage) of looking backwards here. The European swords and techniques developed over the course centuries. A 12th century knight using a sword and shield would not have encountered another knight using a zweihander ( as far as we know). Therefore I think that trying to decide who would come out on top, or which sword or style would be more effective, is nearly an exercise in futility (though a great mental exercise) though some great points and information were brought out in this thread. MY feeling is that the more skilled swordsman would win every time no matter the weapon or the style. I really hate the "all things being equal" clause because it's impossible when dealing with various time periods and cultures. If we are trying trying to find out what would happen in today's world with our centuries of hindsight, then I say the more skilled guy wins again consistently. Remember that these fighting styles were a lifelong couse of study for the people who really used them. Of course, many times on the battlefield the "more skilled" man could lose depending on various factors (tripping over a root, slipping). One has to keep in mind also, that from a historical perspective, the longsword that I think most are referring to was used many times in duels, which were one-on-one affairs and not the melee's that occurred many times with the sword and shield. So I feel we have to keep in mind here the intent of use of the sword and style of combat. I have stayed away from the Japanese arts primarily because of my lack of practical or academic knowledge of them. However, I would say that the sword fighting with katana evolved for sword fighting with other people with katanas. One of the reasons Alex I think the longsword is popular today is the many fighting manuels that are being translated of late. Thus we have more accesable information about it's style and use than ever before. Also, from a practical standpoint, one does not have to buy armor thus making taking up the art a bit cheaper than other forms ( not to mention the cost of the swords compared to a custom Katana). But in the end this debate is akin to whose martial art is better: a debate with no real resolution.
All in all this a cool thread. I remember back when the old HIghlander's shoppers guide was in use ( the forerunner of SFI) there were very few people sharing information about techniques and training methods. That was about 10 years ago. Since that time a wealth of new and old information has become available to the general masses. Lancelot's videos are a great way for someone practicing alone or with a few people, to figure out what this type of combat looks like. I would not be surprised, is this study of the arts continues, to see various techniques from different styles incorporated into someone's "modern" sword fighting methods. Thus the art of sword combat will elvolve yet again. Great thread
All in all this a cool thread. I remember back when the old HIghlander's shoppers guide was in use ( the forerunner of SFI) there were very few people sharing information about techniques and training methods. That was about 10 years ago. Since that time a wealth of new and old information has become available to the general masses. Lancelot's videos are a great way for someone practicing alone or with a few people, to figure out what this type of combat looks like. I would not be surprised, is this study of the arts continues, to see various techniques from different styles incorporated into someone's "modern" sword fighting methods. Thus the art of sword combat will elvolve yet again. Great thread
Lancelot - thanks for sharing those great videos and for experimenting with weapons from different cultures and periods against each other. This is a great example of what *might* have happened. I haven't seen all the videos yet, but there are lots in there that I want to see.
I noticed that cutting sessions were done with a pork leg. How come cutting sessions in North America are done with pumpkins and water bottles? I would have thought a pork leg would simulate reality more. Just curious.
cheers.
I noticed that cutting sessions were done with a pork leg. How come cutting sessions in North America are done with pumpkins and water bottles? I would have thought a pork leg would simulate reality more. Just curious.
cheers.
Well, actually some people in North America cut something similar, like a deer carcass. It's just not widely shown because of cultural differences. Still, I think Patrick Kelly did these kind of test cutting. And many people who frequent ARMA forum did things similarly too.
Interestingly, I dunno if you are aware of this. Many chinese foods are considered gory in westerner's eyes, like how the animals were processed. People in North America seems to be more "humanity" towards animal than those in the Asia, which is not a bad thing considering I'm an animal lover.
However, when it comes to testing swords, many westerners would think cutting animal carcass too gory and a bit too close to the historical reality that give them a hard time accepting what they love were something that bloody. We have to understand that not every people in the sword circle are prepared to take swords as what they were taken as historically. It's not necessarily a bad thing either, because if we all take them as what they were, I think no countries would allow us to mess with swords legally. :) Actually there are people in Hong Kong who can't bear themselves to witness our test cutting sessions either. So it's not a black and white situation.
Everybody has a different level of tolerance for bloody things and violence. In my experience, I found my tolerance vary along my mood. Sometimes I get very sensitive... sometimes I get unfeeling at all. It depends on the context of the circumstances, such as who is related, what is the cause, things like that. Maybe this holds true for everybody, the so-called "switching into the killer mode" or "becoming a loving person".
We all look at swords with different perspective. I have a friend who was shocked when he witness that I was using Autosol on my blade after test cutting. He obviously doesn't accept that a sword will wear off eventually after usage. He expect swords to be forever. (yeah, diamond is forever) Then we have people who don't give a thought when abusing a sword.
I look at swords with multi-facets. It's a killing device, it's a historical relic, it has cultural value and is a proof of our evolution in the timespan. Despite my practice of swordsmanship and considerable high tolerance of bloody thing, sometimes I found myself scared of what a sword could do to a live human being too. Studying swordsmanship for me is like the more you know how powerful the weapon is, the more you can feel it's dangerous and how easy you can ruin someone's life with it... taking everything away. Scary, right? Whenever I look at our videos of group fighting, I can't help to suffer a shiver to see that people indeed dropped like flies on battlefield. You have to spend so many years to raise a proper man, and then just in seconds they all died. So I am very glad what we are doing is just a simulation... I wouldn't like to see myself fighting for life in such situation at all.
It's a contradicting thought. As a swordsmanship practitioner, deep in my heart I have the desire to test my skill in live blade combat. But then, I also feel lucky that I don't have to live by the sword nowadays. Fortunately, sparring with safety weapons and test cutting with live blade will satisfy my desire and let me stay in balance. :) (yeah, by seeing how often I get hit in sparring and what kind of damage a real sword can do, the desire to test my skill in live blade combat quickly drop to bottom... until I haven't sparred or test cut for a while does it raise to my consciousness again)
Interestingly, I dunno if you are aware of this. Many chinese foods are considered gory in westerner's eyes, like how the animals were processed. People in North America seems to be more "humanity" towards animal than those in the Asia, which is not a bad thing considering I'm an animal lover.
However, when it comes to testing swords, many westerners would think cutting animal carcass too gory and a bit too close to the historical reality that give them a hard time accepting what they love were something that bloody. We have to understand that not every people in the sword circle are prepared to take swords as what they were taken as historically. It's not necessarily a bad thing either, because if we all take them as what they were, I think no countries would allow us to mess with swords legally. :) Actually there are people in Hong Kong who can't bear themselves to witness our test cutting sessions either. So it's not a black and white situation.
Everybody has a different level of tolerance for bloody things and violence. In my experience, I found my tolerance vary along my mood. Sometimes I get very sensitive... sometimes I get unfeeling at all. It depends on the context of the circumstances, such as who is related, what is the cause, things like that. Maybe this holds true for everybody, the so-called "switching into the killer mode" or "becoming a loving person".
We all look at swords with different perspective. I have a friend who was shocked when he witness that I was using Autosol on my blade after test cutting. He obviously doesn't accept that a sword will wear off eventually after usage. He expect swords to be forever. (yeah, diamond is forever) Then we have people who don't give a thought when abusing a sword.
I look at swords with multi-facets. It's a killing device, it's a historical relic, it has cultural value and is a proof of our evolution in the timespan. Despite my practice of swordsmanship and considerable high tolerance of bloody thing, sometimes I found myself scared of what a sword could do to a live human being too. Studying swordsmanship for me is like the more you know how powerful the weapon is, the more you can feel it's dangerous and how easy you can ruin someone's life with it... taking everything away. Scary, right? Whenever I look at our videos of group fighting, I can't help to suffer a shiver to see that people indeed dropped like flies on battlefield. You have to spend so many years to raise a proper man, and then just in seconds they all died. So I am very glad what we are doing is just a simulation... I wouldn't like to see myself fighting for life in such situation at all.
It's a contradicting thought. As a swordsmanship practitioner, deep in my heart I have the desire to test my skill in live blade combat. But then, I also feel lucky that I don't have to live by the sword nowadays. Fortunately, sparring with safety weapons and test cutting with live blade will satisfy my desire and let me stay in balance. :) (yeah, by seeing how often I get hit in sparring and what kind of damage a real sword can do, the desire to test my skill in live blade combat quickly drop to bottom... until I haven't sparred or test cut for a while does it raise to my consciousness again)
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
| Lancelot - thanks for sharing those great videos and for experimenting with weapons from different cultures and periods against each other. This is a great example of what *might* have happened. I haven't seen all the videos yet, but there are lots in there that I want to see.
I noticed that cutting sessions were done with a pork leg. How come cutting sessions in North America are done with pumpkins and water bottles? I would have thought a pork leg would simulate reality more. Just curious. cheers. |
On the subject of cutting media... I think part of the decision to cut on water bottles, pork legs, pumpkins, pool noodles, etc. comes from the expense. I'm not sure about elsewhere, but in my area, water bottles, pool noodles, and pumpkins are a lot easier to come by inexpensively than pork legs. Especially in large quantities for those who want to get as much cutting as possible each time the do it. The other thought is clean up. I mean imagine getting a cut that misses bone and pieces of pork fly to the four winds. You will eventually find all the pieces (the last few by smell :\ ) but they may be really icky :eek: when you do.
Just my 2 cents.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Just my 2 cents.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Lancelot;
Thank, those videos are very interesting and it looks like fun. Things seem to happen so fast that to my "uneducated eye" it is difficult to understand exactly what is happening: Even when is fairly clear who won it is not easy in one viewing to see what good move on the one side and what mistake on the other produced the result seen!
I guess a narrated play by play might help or viewing the videos in slow motion or advancing frame by frame a number of times.
But the defensive qualities of the shield would seem to favor closing in to close range by the shield carrier and makes finding an opening to attack by the two handed swordsman difficult: It seems essential for the two handed swordsman to keep control of the engagement distance (Out of range) until the shield & sword opponent makes a mistake.
It is fully to the advantage of the sword & shield guy to crowd the other and forcing the engagement before the two handed swordsman can think of something to do. Also the defense with long sword alone seems much more of a challenge!
(Heavy plate armour worn by the two handed swordsman could tilt the balance the other way. in that case I would prefer using a Pole Axe over any sword or sword and shield!)
Excuse my lack of actual experience as I have not practiced any kind of sparring and have not seen much that wasn't hollywood style (And phony) swordsmanship. (Except for some of the "classic" Japanese Samurai movies that seem quite good and realistic i.e. "The Seven Samourai" as an example.)
Thank, those videos are very interesting and it looks like fun. Things seem to happen so fast that to my "uneducated eye" it is difficult to understand exactly what is happening: Even when is fairly clear who won it is not easy in one viewing to see what good move on the one side and what mistake on the other produced the result seen!
I guess a narrated play by play might help or viewing the videos in slow motion or advancing frame by frame a number of times.
But the defensive qualities of the shield would seem to favor closing in to close range by the shield carrier and makes finding an opening to attack by the two handed swordsman difficult: It seems essential for the two handed swordsman to keep control of the engagement distance (Out of range) until the shield & sword opponent makes a mistake.
It is fully to the advantage of the sword & shield guy to crowd the other and forcing the engagement before the two handed swordsman can think of something to do. Also the defense with long sword alone seems much more of a challenge!
(Heavy plate armour worn by the two handed swordsman could tilt the balance the other way. in that case I would prefer using a Pole Axe over any sword or sword and shield!)
Excuse my lack of actual experience as I have not practiced any kind of sparring and have not seen much that wasn't hollywood style (And phony) swordsmanship. (Except for some of the "classic" Japanese Samurai movies that seem quite good and realistic i.e. "The Seven Samourai" as an example.)
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
| Lancelot - thanks for sharing those great videos and for experimenting with weapons from different cultures and periods against each other. This is a great example of what *might* have happened. I haven't seen all the videos yet, but there are lots in there that I want to see.
I noticed that cutting sessions were done with a pork leg. How come cutting sessions in North America are done with pumpkins and water bottles? I would have thought a pork leg would simulate reality more. Just curious. cheers. |
They have been.
I think the issue comes down to cost. Pumpkins and soda bottles are often essentially free. Pork legs are not (for most of us). :D
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
| Lancelot;
Thank, those videos are very interesting and it looks like fun. Things seem to happen so fast that to my "uneducated eye" it is difficult to understand exactly what is happening: Even when is fairly clear who won it is not easy in one viewing to see what good move on the one side and what mistake on the other produced the result seen! I guess a narrated play by play might help or viewing the videos in slow motion or advancing frame by frame a number of times. But the defensive qualities of the shield would seem to favor closing in to close range by the shield carrier and makes finding an opening to attack by the two handed swordsman difficult: It seems essential for the two handed swordsman to keep control of the engagement distance (Out of range) until the shield & sword opponent makes a mistake. It is fully to the advantage of the sword & shield guy to crowd the other and forcing the engagement before the two handed swordsman can think of something to do. Also the defense with long sword alone seems much more of a challenge! (Heavy plate armour worn by the two handed swordsman could tilt the balance the other way. in that case I would prefer using a Pole Axe over any sword or sword and shield!) Excuse my lack of actual experience as I have not practiced any kind of sparring and have not seen much that wasn't hollywood style (And phony) swordsmanship. (Except for some of the "classic" Japanese Samurai movies that seem quite good and realistic i.e. "The Seven Samourai" as an example.) |
I will not try to answer this with authority since I have not sparred against sword and shield. It is however a part of the training process I will get to eventually. All I can offer at this point is a very novice opinion based on my limited longsword experience.
Thus IMO, the thing to remember is that sword and shield and single longsword both have advantages and disadvantages. The game is about applying the strengths of the tool you are using against the weakness of the tool the other guy has. Joel's observation about the skill of the user being of greater importance is spot on IMO because skill helps you analyze what your strengths and weaknesses are as well as your opponents strengths and weaknesses.
Something else to clear up right away, if the longswordsman has any experience at all, he will know what his options and actions are as soon as he assumes a guard position; which is most likely as soon as he takes up his weapon. You will not be able to attack him before he decides what to do unless you attack him before he expects to fight.
To close with his opponent, the sword and shield man has to pass through a very dangerous zone, against a very fast and powerful weapon that is poised to strike. I believe this can be done because some of the people I've trained with say it can be done, has been done to them, and that a shield can be a difficult thing to overcome UNTIL you learn its vulnerabilities. So the shield can be powerful but it can also be countered. An important thing to remember about this type of combat/sparring as well, is that your opponent can give ground, step to the side, or otherwise change the line of battle. Many sparring partners I've faced constantly change distance and line looking for an advantage. If you or your opponent misjudges distance somebody will be in trouble, assuming one of you are ready to take advantage of the error. Novices (like me) make distance (and timing) mistakes OFTEN. More skilled swordsmen make these mistakes much less often.
Anyway closing is not gaurenteed by the attempt to close because WMA combat/sparring is not a static and linear affair.
Some of the better longswordmen I've sparred with could deliver power blows with such speed and from such unexpected angles/positions that I often found it hard to even keep track of where their weapon was. When you don't know where the other guys attack is coming from and going to, you are in trouble and attempting to close can lead you right into your oponents attack. Finally there are longsword techniques for dealing with close combat. If it becomes a wrestling match (ringen) which many times in my sparring experience attempts to close or overrun do lead to, then neither sword nor shield of either combatant may be such an asset.
Finally, although I hate to say it, IMO some of this stuff just has to be experienced first hand to really appreciate and understand it.
Last edited by Joe Fults on Thu 25 Nov, 2004 10:05 pm; edited 9 times in total
Do you have Quicktime player? If you have, you can try play back the mpg files with frame by frame function. You can load upthe file in quicktime player, and then use your left and right arrow keys to make it play frame by frame. That way you can see all the contacts. :)
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
| Lancelot;
Thank, those videos are very interesting and it looks like fun. Things seem to happen so fast that to my "uneducated eye" it is difficult to understand exactly what is happening: Even when is fairly clear who won it is not easy in one viewing to see what good move on the one side and what mistake on the other produced the result seen! I guess a narrated play by play might help or viewing the videos in slow motion or advancing frame by frame a number of times. |
Joe;
Thanks for the explanation(s) seem logical to me, and I am sure that you are right that the only way to really understand it, is by doing it! I would imagine that a very dangerous situation, no matter what weapon one is using, is when because of the press of combat or terrain consideration one can no longer control the range or direction of engagement or even the timing.
A situation to avoid at all cost if at all possible. (Battle conditions versus the conditions of a duel maybe?)
Well learning new stuff (New for me....LOL) is the whole point of this great site and the willingness of the more informed to help. (Very sincere thanks)
Lancelot;
Yes I have quicktime but it is the free version so I am not sure if I have the use of the controls you mentionned: will have to try. (Used to do animation using quicktime animations in "After-Effects at work": Haven't checked out my home computer limitations yet.)
Thanks for the explanation(s) seem logical to me, and I am sure that you are right that the only way to really understand it, is by doing it! I would imagine that a very dangerous situation, no matter what weapon one is using, is when because of the press of combat or terrain consideration one can no longer control the range or direction of engagement or even the timing.
A situation to avoid at all cost if at all possible. (Battle conditions versus the conditions of a duel maybe?)
Well learning new stuff (New for me....LOL) is the whole point of this great site and the willingness of the more informed to help. (Very sincere thanks)
Lancelot;
Yes I have quicktime but it is the free version so I am not sure if I have the use of the controls you mentionned: will have to try. (Used to do animation using quicktime animations in "After-Effects at work": Haven't checked out my home computer limitations yet.)
Yes, the free version can do that too.
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
| Joe;
Lancelot; Yes I have quicktime but it is the free version so I am not sure if I have the use of the controls you mentionned: will have to try. (Used to do animation using quicktime animations in "After-Effects at work": Haven't checked out my home computer limitations yet.) |
Lancelot;
Yes, the frame by frame thing works, I think they upgraded it recently because it seems more responsive than it used to be: Could be wrong as I haven't had a need to use the quicktime player in a while. (By the way I use a Mac 17" powerbook.)
Yes the slowmotion does help a bit to understand what is happenning but it would need a higher frame rate to see everything as the motion is so fast that you loose a lot of the motion between frames.
Anyway that is enough computer GEEK talk for this thread............LOL.
Yes, the frame by frame thing works, I think they upgraded it recently because it seems more responsive than it used to be: Could be wrong as I haven't had a need to use the quicktime player in a while. (By the way I use a Mac 17" powerbook.)
Yes the slowmotion does help a bit to understand what is happenning but it would need a higher frame rate to see everything as the motion is so fast that you loose a lot of the motion between frames.
Anyway that is enough computer GEEK talk for this thread............LOL.
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