Posts: 106 Location: Peru
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 11:11 am
| Quote: |
1) against a person with mail armour
2) against a person with leather armour
3) against a person with no armour
4) against a person where you don't know what kind of armour (if any) he'll be wearing.
|
Depends on whether it is a pre-arranged duel, a self-defence encounter at a narrow alley or something else. Assuming you meant a formal duel in an area with plenty of space in which to manouver, my pick in all of the above would be a longsword capable of both cutting and thrusting effectively. In a more closed space, a baskethilt and a buckler against the non-plate-armoured opponents, longsword against the chap in plate.
Rabbe
PS. If someone is interested, there are also several (slightly friendlier on slower connections) video clips available at http://www.scholasaintgeorge.org/video_index.html - all of them are worth watching, especially the Bob Charron vs. Brian R. Price and Keith Jennings bouts that can be found roughly halfway down the page.
Last edited by R. Laine on Wed 24 Nov, 2004 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 104
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 11:12 am
Hi Rabbe,
thanks - is the AT Lady Carmen classified as a "Long Sword"?
cheers.
Posts: 106 Location: Peru
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 11:19 am
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
Hi Rabbe,
thanks - is the AT Lady Carmen classified as a "Long Sword"?
cheers. |
Yep.
Posts: 104
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 11:44 am
Hey Rabbe,
those videos are awesome! Truly a great educational experience, and truly dispels what you see in Hollywood. These duels are so much more entertaining, and it's a pity that the masses don't find realism to their taste. I suppose if the fight with the bad guy ended in 10 seconds, people wouldn't like it.
I learnt a lot about how to hold the sword properly, and some really neat moves too.
fantastic!
cheers.
Posts: 104
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 12:21 pm
by the way - are these swords in these videos accurate as far as weight and balance are concerned?
thanks
Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 12:22 pm
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
| I guess the reason why I'm asking is because I was wielding a Paul Chen Practical Plus Katana which wields like a feather, and I just received my beautiful AT Lady Carmen which wields like a Parking Meter by comparison. I'm trying to figure out what is the reason behind using more unwieldy weapons which I assume to be because of armour. |
This statement comparing the Lady Carmen to a "parking meter" confuses me to no end. First, it's a huge exaggeration. It doesn't wield like a parking meter: not even by comparison. I realize you're using the exaggeration to get your point across, but really, that's just silly.. :)
Carmen weighs 2.6 Lb and has a 37" blade. Overall, it's 47.5" long. That's a very large sword and a very light-weight.
The stats on the PPK are around 40.5" overall with a 27.25" blade length. It weighs about 2.3 pounds.
To think that a sword with a 37" blade is going to share any dynamic properties with your PPK really isn't a realisitic expectation. There is a 10" blade difference and nearly 8" overall difference.
Let's not also point out that they're both designed for completely different purposes and dynamic properties.
Posts: 104
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 1:12 pm
my point was to compare actual swordplay dynamics when two combatants are faced with these different weapons, which were explained fantastically by the videos and other examples. I was not saying that the more unwieldy weapon is worse - it was a question of why use it as opposed to a faster weapon. The videos demonstrated quite clearly the answer to a complex question.
cheers.
Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 1:13 pm
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
| my point was to compare actual swordplay dynamics when two combatants are faced with these different weapons, which were explained fantastically by the videos and other examples. I was not saying that the more unwieldy weapon is worse - it was a question of why use it as opposed to a faster weapon. The videos demonstrated quite clearly the answer to a complex question. |
That goes to show why me picking one post and answering just that one isn't that good of an idea :)
Posts: 1,191 Location: San Francisco, CA
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 1:16 pm
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
| Alex Yeoh wrote: | | I guess the reason why I'm asking is because I was wielding a Paul Chen Practical Plus Katana which wields like a feather, and I just received my beautiful AT Lady Carmen which wields like a Parking Meter by comparison. I'm trying to figure out what is the reason behind using more unwieldy weapons which I assume to be because of armour. |
This statement comparing the Lady Carmen to a "parking meter" confuses me to no end. First, it's a huge exaggeration. It doesn't wield like a parking meter: not even by comparison. I realize you're using the exaggeration to get your point across, but really, that's just silly.. :)
Carmen weighs 2.6 Lb and has a 37" blade. Overall, it's 47.5" long. That's a very large sword and a very light-weight.
The stats on the PPK are around 40.5" overall with a 27.25" blade length. It weighs about 2.3 pounds.
To think that a sword with a 37" blade is going to share any dynamic properties with your PPK really isn't a realisitic expectation. There is a 10" blade difference and nearly 8" overall difference.
Let's not also point out that they're both designed for completely different purposes and dynamic properties. |
I am glad somebody made that point!!!!
Alexi
Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 1:29 pm
Hey Alex-
I just wanted to also add that the Lady Carmen is an extremely "handy" sword, having very quick dynamic properties and is generally thought to be a quick, agile, and well-designed weapon for its type. I found it to be exactly that. My own personal preference is that it was a bit too light and quick for my own purposes. This goes to show that we each have preferences.
You'd probably be shocked at some swords designed for Warfare, as they're quite a bit heavier with much, much more blade presence. As has been mentioned, there's a ton of variance in sword design and purpose. Reading many of our reviews and articles on our site will demonstrate this.
There are many European swords I've owned and loved that are much "hefier" and slower that a sword like the Carmen. They also happen to, in contrast, hit with a lot more power. My katana, even, at 2.8 pounds and pretty beefy and has a whole lot of blade presence to it. Compared to the PPK, my katana feels nearly twice as heavy even though it's only a half pound heavier at most.
Pretty neat, this sword science. Two swords, even at the same overall weight and dimensions, can have completely different dynamic properties and "feels". This is one of the most interesting things about this hobby to me! Fascinating stuff.
Posts: 104
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 1:45 pm
Right. My point was not that the Lady Carmen was a bad sword, in fact I know it is swift for its class. The question was more about sword class vs sword class, as opposed to anything related to the Lady Carmen per se. I still wonder though how accurate those practice swords in the videos are, with regards to weight and balance. To not have authentic weight and balance in those demonstrations would really defeat the comparison in my opinion.
Oh - and the weight and POB of sword science fascinates me too! Just seeing the swordsmen wield huge swords in the video really demonstrate how different swords require different techniques. I always thought that someone who was skilled at short swords would also be skilled at long swords, but I see that is not the case. But again, if the practice swords do not represent the true POB and weight of the real thing, it would not be an accurate portrayal.
cheers.
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
Hey Alex-
I just wanted to also add that the Lady Carmen is an extremely "handy" sword, having very quick dynamic properties and is generally thought to be a quick, agile, and well-designed weapon for its type. I found it to be exactly that. My own personal preference is that it was a bit too light and quick for my own purposes. This goes to show that we each have preferences.
You'd probably be shocked at some swords designed for Warfare, as they're quite a bit heavier with much, much more blade presence. As has been mentioned, there's a ton of variance in sword design and purpose. Reading many of our reviews and articles on our site will demonstrate this.
There are many European swords I've owned and loved that are much "hefier" and slower that a sword like the Carmen. They also happen to, in contrast, hit with a lot more power. My katana, even, at 2.8 pounds and pretty beefy and has a whole lot of blade presence to it. Compared to the PPK, my katana feels nearly twice as heavy even though it's only a half pound heavier at most.
Pretty neat, this sword science. Two swords, even at the same overall weight and dimensions, can have completely different dynamic properties and "feels". This is one of the most interesting things about this hobby to me! Fascinating stuff. |
Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 1:54 pm
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
| Right. My point was not that the Lady Carmen was a bad sword, in fact I know it is swift for its class. The question was more about sword class vs sword class, as opposed to anything related to the Lady Carmen per se. I still wonder though how accurate those practice swords in the videos are, with regards to weight and balance. To not have authentic weight and balance in those demonstrations would really defeat the comparison in my opinion. |
Rest assured, I didn't think you said the Carmen was a bad sword. I don't see that said anywhere.
But to the point of "sword class vs sword class" -- that was my point: The PPK and Lady Carmen are in completely different classes and so a comparison is difficult, at best, and likely fruitless. I believe this was your conclusion, as well.
Though the original question in this topic was east vs. west and I thought it interesting, or maybe even relavent, to point out that my own katana weighs in more than the Lady Carman sword.
Posts: 104
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 2:02 pm
how long is the Katana blade, POB,and who made it?
thanks.
Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 2:14 pm
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
| how long is the Katana blade, POB,and who made it? |
It's a forge-folded Cicada Forge piece. Dunno the stats. Something like a 29.5" blade ant 6.5" balance point at 2.8 pounds.
Another interesting thing is that you can take two swords with the same dimensions (overall/blade) with the same balance points and have completely different dynamic properties between them. Simple stats don't convey the whole story. It's about how the mass is distributed that really creates a complex picture of things.
Posts: 104
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 2:55 pm
one more question:
1 handed sword (eg. knightly sword) and
shield
versus
long sword
which is preferable and why?
thanks.
Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 3:23 pm
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
one more question:
1 handed sword (eg. knightly sword) and shield
versus
long sword
which is preferable and why?
thanks. |
Preferable for what? This is far too vague for me to answer, personally. Maybe somebody else will take this, but I dunno.
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 3:30 pm
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
one more question:
1 handed sword (eg. knightly sword) and shield
versus
long sword
which is preferable and why?
thanks. |
Longsword.
Because I have trained with it (a very, very little bit) and have a vague idea how to use it. Because I have not trained with the sword and shield so I'm not confident I could employ the combination satisfactorily.
So in my case, the answer is personal preference. Milage will vary.
Posts: 5,739 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 3:38 pm
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
one more question:
1 handed sword (eg. knightly sword) and shield
versus
long sword
which is preferable and why?
thanks. |
Don't take this personally Alex, and no offense intended. However, the questions your asking are far too simplistic. You're not going to get an adequate and educational answer to this question. The only real answer is "niether". Both types were designed to do different things in different circumstances. A direct comparison isn't possible in terms of which one is better or worse. Preferable? In what context? In what circumstance and environment.. These general questions on this vs. that, or which is better or preferable are just too simplistic too answer.
I really think that the issue with the Lady Carmen is that you aren't familiar with european longsword techniques. When employed in the proper fashion it's just as fast as anything else. The weight really isn't an issue. Maybe you're trying to use a european longsword like a katana?
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Wed 24 Nov, 2004 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Wed 24 Nov, 2004 3:39 pm
| Alex Yeoh wrote: |
"heavy and unwieldy" being a relative term. I mean compared with a very quick katana for example, or a fast rapier.
if polearms were used against armour, then what were 2 handed swords used for? Unarmoured foes? Isn't the one with the quickest weapon going to win most of the time? |
Fast rapier or smallsword?
The Rob Roy example is a smallsword and IMO against a longsword it gives up reach, power, and deflection ability for the possibilty of a speed advantage in some but not all situations. However, the smallsword is much easier to carry around town and at court. It a question of what is important to you as an individual.
Also note, many rapiers were heavier than longswords.
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