Bill;
Have you given any thought to having a scabbard made for the sword? In order to give it some protection and also to maybe complement the sword?
| Jason Manville wrote: |
| Bill;
Have you given any thought to having a scabbard made for the sword? In order to give it some protection and also to maybe complement the sword? |
Nah, I'm not going to bother. I plan on hanging this up, in which case I want the bare blade with engravings showing. I'll also take it down to bring to show to students, in which case I'll be wrapping it up to transport it, so it won't actually need a scabbard. Plus, for me, it seems like a modern made scabbard would look odd on an antique. Besides, I have a ton of modern reproductions that still need scabbards first. :)
Bill, is the blade whippy? :D :p
All joking aside, it looks great. Your photos have revealed things that the original auction photos did not. We discussed this in email already so you know my thoughts, but I want to publicly say that I wish I had put a bid into the auction to outbid you :)
All joking aside, it looks great. Your photos have revealed things that the original auction photos did not. We discussed this in email already so you know my thoughts, but I want to publicly say that I wish I had put a bid into the auction to outbid you :)
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
| Bill, is the blade whippy? :D :p |
Yes, I think I'm going to return it. ;)
| Quote: |
| All joking aside, it looks great. Your photos have revealed things that the original auction photos did not. We discussed this in email already so you know my thoughts, but I want to publicly say that I wish I had put a bid into the auction to outbid you :) |
Tough! :p
| Bill Grandy wrote: |
|
Dating the sword is tricky. The blade has the engravings "S-O-L-I D-E-O" on one side and "G-L-O-R-I-A" on the other. This roughly means "For the Glory of God Alone", and this is one of the five sola of the Protestant Reformation (five Latin phrases that encapsulate the movement's beliefs). The Protestant Reformation is generally accepted to have ended at about 1648, so that most likely places the age of the blade in the first half of that century. |
Your translation of "Soli Deo Gloria" is close, though "to" or "unto" God Alone the Glory is probably more accurate. In case you were wondering, the "five sola" are called "first principles" by Protestants, and "cardinal principles" by Lutherans (despite what many secular historians say, not the same.) Dating this blade seems nearly impossible. For one thing, you can't tell who forged it nor to whom it belonged. "Soli Deo Gloria" may be a Protestant (Reformed/Calvinist) formal principle, but the Roman Catholics and Lutherans used the phrase as a motto before the Protestants, the former more so than the latter. You almost certainly know that mercenaries from Dalmatia (Croatia) employed by the Doge of Venice introduced the schiavona to Italy. It is highly possible that Lutherans were among them. The martyred monk, Baldo Lupetino, was a Croatian Lutheran as was his more famous nephew, the theologian Matthias Flacius Illyricus. All this is irrelevant to you because by the beginning of the 17th century the schiavona was probably popular everywhere.
Here is something to tuck into your files. The Lutherans used the letters"VDMA" as a specifically Lutheran symbol. These are the initials of Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum, Latin for" Word of the Lord endures forever." It is usually found with the arms of a cross separating the letters. This was the motto of the Electors of Saxony who became Martin Luther's protectors and students. VDMA was incised on weapons used in the short Smalcaldic War that ended badly for the Lutherans.
Very interesting, Wesley! Thank you!
While I agree that some Croatians were protestant, the great majority stayed catholic. It was wise to stay catholic when you have turks attacking you and you expect support from pope and your Habsburg king or Venetian Dodge, depending in which part of the country you live in, who are also catholic. It says nothing about the man who made the blade, but the chance that Croat who went to Venice was a protestant is a small chance.
Btw, Bill, you are very lucky to have a sword like this in your collection. This could be called my "national" sword and I can't afford even a decent replica.
Btw, Bill, you are very lucky to have a sword like this in your collection. This could be called my "national" sword and I can't afford even a decent replica.
| Wesley Kan wrote: | ||
Your translation of "Soli Deo Gloria" is close, though "to" or "unto" God Alone the Glory is probably more accurate. In case you were wondering, the "five sola" are called "first principles" by Protestants, and "cardinal principles" by Lutherans (despite what many secular historians say, not the same.) Dating this blade seems nearly impossible. For one thing, you can't tell who forged it nor to whom it belonged. "Soli Deo Gloria" may be a Protestant (Reformed/Calvinist) formal principle, but the Roman Catholics and Lutherans used the phrase as a motto before the Protestants, the former more so than the latter. You almost certainly know that mercenaries from Dalmatia (Croatia) employed by the Doge of Venice introduced the schiavona to Italy. It is highly possible that Lutherans were among them. The martyred monk, Baldo Lupetino, was a Croatian Lutheran as was his more famous nephew, the theologian Matthias Flacius Illyricus. All this is irrelevant to you because by the beginning of the 17th century the schiavona was probably popular everywhere. Here is something to tuck into your files. The Lutherans used the letters"VDMA" as a specifically Lutheran symbol. These are the initials of Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum, Latin for" Word of the Lord endures forever." It is usually found with the arms of a cross separating the letters. This was the motto of the Electors of Saxony who became Martin Luther's protectors and students. VDMA was incised on weapons used in the short Smalcaldic War that ended badly for the Lutherans. |
Soli deo gloria is common in catholic areas too.
Schiavonas were made in Belùn/Belluno (I got a rare and documented book on the two centuries when Belluno was a swordmaking town)
The history of inquisition in Italy is not well written for lack of documents, from an essay of prof. Dal Col i have red last summer it does indeed emerge the venetian territory saw a large circulation of protestant ideas.
There are no documents attesting that some bellunese swordmakers could be crypto-protestant I think.
The easier hypothesis is that such sword was made by an observant catholic.
This doesn't exclude that a secretly protestant leaning swordmaker might have chosen this motto on purpose.
Be sure to post video when you try it out on milk jugs.
o
o
o
Joking aside, Wow! I know basically nothing about schiavona, being way past my era of interest, but - wow! Serious congratulations, Bill. It's nice the sword is going to a conservator who is really appreciative and deserving of it, too.
Aside impression: I had no idea the guards were so thick on those things. A punch from the basket would ruin your day.
o
o
o
Joking aside, Wow! I know basically nothing about schiavona, being way past my era of interest, but - wow! Serious congratulations, Bill. It's nice the sword is going to a conservator who is really appreciative and deserving of it, too.
Aside impression: I had no idea the guards were so thick on those things. A punch from the basket would ruin your day.
| Bruno Giordan wrote: |
|
Soli deo gloria is common in catholic areas too. Schiavonas were made in Belùn/Belluno (I got a rare and documented book on the two centuries when Belluno was a swordmaking town) The history of inquisition in Italy is not well written for lack of documents, from an essay of prof. Dal Col i have red last summer it does indeed emerge the venetian territory saw a large circulation of protestant ideas. There are no documents attesting that some bellunese swordmakers could be crypto-protestant I think. The easier hypothesis is that such sword was made by an observant catholic. This doesn't exclude that a secretly protestant leaning swordmaker might have chosen this motto on purpose. |
My apologies to Bruno for not expressing myself clearly. In the early sixteenth century Dalmatia and Venice were overwhelmingly Roman Catholic. What is surprising is was that Lutheranism made any advancements at all in these areas before being snuffed out. As a historical theologian I would be interested in the essay by Prof Dal Col to which he referred, even if it isn't in English.
One swordsmith who incised "soli Deo gloria" on his blades was the Bohemian (?) smith, Johannes Wundes (1560-1620). Found this information and a line drawing in Eduard Wagner, Cut and Thrust Weapons (Jean Layton, trans.) (London: Spring Books, 1967), p. 108. Unfortunately, the line drawing looks nothing like what is on Bill's sword.
| Wesley Kan wrote: | ||
My apologies to Bruno for not expressing myself clearly. In the early sixteenth century Dalmatia and Venice were overwhelmingly Roman Catholic. What is surprising is was that Lutheranism made any advancements at all in these areas before being snuffed out. As a historical theologian I would be interested in the essay by Prof Dal Col to which he referred, even if it isn't in English. One swordsmith who incised "soli Deo gloria" on his blades was the Bohemian (?) smith, Johannes Wundes (1560-1620). Found this information and a line drawing in Eduard Wagner, Cut and Thrust Weapons (Jean Layton, trans.) (London: Spring Books, 1967), p. 108. Unfortunately, the line drawing looks nothing like what is on Bill's sword. |
Well, it is a good essay on italian inquisition. The republic of Venice seems to have been run by currents of protestantism. venice was lighthanded in dealing with witchcraft (a very sensed approach), repression of protestantism did happen though.
The work is really neutral and factual.
Andrea Del Col, L’Inquisizione in Italia dal XII al XXI secolo, Milano, Mondadori, 2006.
Actually it is in Northern italy that the first reform movements emerged (patarini, catari, waldensians).
The hypothesis of a swordmaker with a well hidden penchant for reform ideas is not so far-fetched.
Another hypothesis is that of a swords for a jesuit .... as the soli deo gloria motto belonged also to the Company of Jesus.
So I *finally* got around to buying a new scale for weighing swords again. I edited to original post to include the weight, which is 2 lbs and 9.3 oz.
Resurrecting this thread to link to a new article series on my site, TheHEMAists. The series is called "Tools of the Trade", where we showcase different antiques, and the first installment is the schiavona in this thread.
www.thehemaists.com/2017/04/22/tools-of-the-t...t-type-2b/
www.thehemaists.com/2017/04/22/tools-of-the-t...t-type-2b/
Page 2 of 2
You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
All contents © Copyright 2003-2006 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Full-featured Version of the forum
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Full-featured Version of the forum