Most 17th century rapiers had a decent length to them, but there was a short slice of time where it was the fashion to have extremely long blades. These would have reached well into the low to high 50 inch total weapon lengths. It may only have been a span of 10 - 20 years or so, but I just can't recall exactly when that was. I am thinking they were around 1620 - 30 and mostly Italian in origin. Does anyone here have any thoughts on this?

I ask because I have recently come across one that measures 55 inches and it has characteristics that match another sword known to be Italian.

Dave

Actually, 16th century swords were regulated in England to be no more than about 40" of blade, so the length of "long rapiers" certainly lasted more than a decade. During the 17th century, the blades seem to get shorter and shorter with the transitional swords to even shorter blades begins by mid century.

I am sure some others may be able to speak more definitively on the subject but it was Elizabeth's 1566 proclamation that comes to mind. Even then, we are looking at swords with 40" blades quite near that 50" mark and certainly longer before the proclamation.

A brief here, as the first Google hit I came across in remembering this.
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~zebee/length.htm

Cheers

GC

Your Italian Rapier authors of the mid 16-early17th century usually refer to the cross being arround your naval with the point on the ground.

I just went through my new Wallace digital catalog and I counted 12 rapiers over 130cm in total length.
All of these are 17th century and almost all of them seem to fall into the 1620-1650 range

The 2 longest are
A668 @ 139.7cm overall and 123cm blade, 1650
and
A570 @ 139 overall and 122.7cm blade. 1620-30

of the rest of the over 130cm crowd 115cm seems to be the average blade length. 1.3k seems to be the average weight.


There are a lot more in the 120-130cm range, dated from the 1580s through the middle of the 17th century. Most of those seem to average 105-115cm in blade length.

Philip II of Spain chose to pass a law limiting sword blades to a length of 41" English (source). I think there were other similar laws in other jurisdictions. The English masters circa 1600 also make it clear that blades longer than most masters who published books recommended were in use.

A668 is dated c. 1650

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMus...T&sp=0


Link no longer works. Just use the advanced search function on the Wallace Collection site and search for A668 in the Museum Number field.
Or buy the digital catalog for yourself, I highly recommend it :)

Thank you.

I finally made it back home to be able to post a few photos to help this discussion. It does measure to be just slightly over 55 inches in total length. I generally first associate cup hilts with being Spanish, although some were of German and Italian origin. The grip and pommel look more descriptive of being Italian and so that is why I am leaning in that direction. My guess is that this may be more mid to later1600s rather than earlier.

It really is incredibly long that is hard to appreciate until you pick it up and also have it side by side with others of around the same time period. Unfortunately my camera died and I can't post a photo of the entire length. However, just add a few inches to that one photo and that will give you an idea. The blade is also stronger and more rigid than I was expecting for its length. The grip is elongated just a bit to correct the balance for this longer blade. A weapon like this would take some getting used to if one was more familiar with the more standard length variety of thrusting rapier and I can't imagine someone actually having this as a daily wear accessory.

I hope that I do not offend anyone and I am more at home in medieval swords, but I believe that this cup hilt rapier can be made in the 19th century; the broad rings on the grip instead of turkish knots are characteristic for a 19th century piece.
Furthermore, the long ricasso above the cup does not have a function and it has a pommel in a different form as the terminals of the quillon.

would it be possible to place some more pictures preferably also of the inside,gardapolvo?, of the cup.
thanks and best,

With a few other people having a look at it, the growing consensus is that what I have here is a composite piece with the blade and possibly pommel being of the proper time. It has definately been regripped, but that is not an uncommon thing to have been done in the 1700 - 1800s to older weapons. The crossguard and cup are still in question as to age and being original to the blade. Hopefully I will be able to bring it in to my specialist next week for his thoughts.