Posts: 49 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Wed 08 Sep, 2010 6:09 pm
This is one of those arguments (sorry, "discussions") that ends up going around in circles indefinitely. At the end of the day, the best we can do simply agree to disagree. Jeff, you and I know all about this!
James Gillespie makes an excellent point; charging on horseback would increase the force of the blow considerably, but enough to cut through all that iron, is still anybody's guess. I had another look through the Mac. Bible, and it turns out that the majority of the confrontations that involved helm splitting was when one side was in retreat - which would negate Jame's argument about force increased by speed of horse, at least in the case of those specific images. However Jeff, I still wonder if it would be enough to split helm and skull. I'll have to give you points for the Bruce/DeBohoun (sp?) story, although I would lean more on the side of Kel, since there are a lot of apocryphal stories about medieval knights performing amazing feats of arms, and a story meant to make a king look good in the eyes of his subjects sixty years after the fact is a little suspect. Do I deny that the Bruce did it? No. But it is possible that the story may have been embellished a bit.
Adam - I have to wonder a bit about your knowledge of this subject. I don't mean to criticize you or belittle you, but you have made several statements that appear to be lacking in expertise. You state that medieval metal was full of fatigue and brittleness, when any medieval armourer would know that a heat and slow cool would normalize the iron and eliminate these problems. An examination of authentic armour proves that it is extremely well made, even given the lack of scientific knowledge and use of modern techniques.
You then say that no modern re-enactor would be able to match the skill and ferocity of a medieval warrior, but keep in mind that not everyone on a medieval battlefield was a professional soldier. Many were there to fulfill their feudal obligation, and were more adept at farming than fighting. Indeed, a medieval battlefield looked more like a chess board than anything else, with the majority of combatants being "pawns". Even knights were not all skilled warriors, which leads me another point you made; that you hadn't heard that many knights only participated in one or two conflicts throughout their lives. This is not inaccurate. Battles were rare events, and knights didn't run around fighting all day and feasting all night. Combat may have been more frequent during conflicts like the Hundred Years War, but overall, full scale pitched battles were rare events, even during the HYW. Indeed, during the 13th and 14 th centuries, many knights opted out of their feudal obligations by paying "
Shield Scuttage", which meant that they didn't have to serve their requisite forty days a year. The money was then used to pay mercenaries to serve in their place.
Chad makes the point that no one in modern times has ever entered a conflict with swords where they are fighting for their lives. I would say that Hank Reinhardt has; not with swords, but with knives. He told me numerous tales of his youth where he was in a knife fight, and the guy he was fighting was intent on killing him. The fight usually ended when blood was drawn, for some reason that was enough for them to realize what they were doing and stop. I'm also sure that there may be some WWII veterans who engaged in hand to hand combat with nothing more than a bayonet; surely this would qualify. All I can say is I'm thankful that I've never had to experience such a thing; the
Hastings battle re-enactment was real enough for me!
I guess what I'm saying Adam, is not every medieval soldier was highly trained and skilled. Many would be, and they would definitely be more than a match for the majority of modern swordsmen, but many more would not be, just like the way there are a lot of people today who drive cars; many are skilled drivers, but I'm sure you'll agree that many, many more should never, ever get behind the wheel of a car (even though they do on a daily basis)!
Getting back to the subject of this thread; I'm still not convinced that it's possible to split a 13th c.
great helm with a sword. What do I base my opinion on? Thirty years of experience making armour, among other things. If anybody wants to perform some tests, I would be happy to provide the helm, mail coif, steel under cap, and arming cap. You provide the swords, and we'll have to find someone who is comparable in skill and strength to a medieval knight. I can think of only one person; Hank Reinhardt, and unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago. But this doesn't mean that there's not someone else out there that would fit the bill.
OK, I'm done; I've said too much already.
Peter Fuller