Posts: 74
Sat 28 May, 2016 11:33 am
J. Nicolaysen wrote: |
Might also look into the ahlspiess, a similar weapon of a different locale. |
[ Linked Image ]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlspiess
Thanks, good tip. It looks very much like a goedendag and the spike is similar but the ahlspeiss is functionally different. It lacks the heavy club head, making it a pure thrusting weapon. It has a flat ring at the base of the spike, just like the goedendag. In both weapons the ring prevents overpenetration in a thrust. But the thin ring, spike and haft could never be used as a braced sharpened stave to stop a charging horse like the goedendag supposedly was. Bottom line: the ahlspeiss is a single-purpose thrusting weapon and the goedendag is a multi-purpose club/short pike/sharp stave. But the visual similarities are striking and it is an interesting weapon.
A question for those with pole arm sparring (fencing?) experience: would the ring on the ahlspeiss be at all useful to help parry, say, a spear thrust? Just curious.
Posts: 107 Location: Croatia
Sat 28 May, 2016 2:02 pm
Kirk K. wrote: |
it is also useful to remind us all of the context here; the 14th century use of the goedendag against French armor. |
Yeah, did not work that well all all most of the time;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Omer
Kirk K. wrote: |
That was before the invention of crucible steel, so I just wanted to make sure that your comments about steel apply to an early 1300s French breastplate. |
There were no breastplates in the early 1300s.
Kirk K. wrote: |
I defer to your hands-on experience with the weight and feel of the weapon. |
It is a top heavy wooden stick with a spike.
A poor mans polearm.
Kirk K. wrote: |
So far as your clear implications of dishonesty on my part, I guess we are done. I am interested in learning. |
Then ask more and state less.
Kirk K. wrote: |
It was not a spear, it was like a Chinese dagger axe. |
Then I definitely do not believe you.
That is ludicrous.
Kirk K. wrote: |
Lighten up. |
Well, you claimed something I though ridiculous, I merely called you up on that.
For last, I leave you with a simulated cavalry lance strike into a coat of plates;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4el5gX6_98
The highest velocity strikes managed to deal pathetic penetration, while others resulted in mere dents.
Posts: 170 Location: Michigan
Sat 28 May, 2016 7:01 pm
I am not offended in any way. You are making valuable contributions to the thread and challenging my ideas. That is exactly what I seek. How would I learn anything here otherwise? Your politeness is greatly appreciated, but do not hold back. I want to find as much of the truth of the matter as I can, so be as blunt as you need to be. I am.[/quote]
Thanks, Kirk! I wasn't sure of your communication style, so I wanted to error conservative.
My searches for any Battle of Courtrai discussions on this forum didn't pan out. I'm not on other forums, so I know the discussion I remember is in here somewhere....... I'll share it when I find it.
Posts: 2,307 Location: Croatia
Sun 29 May, 2016 6:51 am
I'm not sure if goedendag was used earlier, but I don't think it's mentioned anywhere earlier than this Flemish burgers rising. Also, Flemish burgers don't seem to have won any other significant victories and by the 15th century, I don't think there is much evidence of goedendags still being used regularly in battles. So, it doesn't seem to be anything other that improvised short polearm, relatively cheap and effective enough for fighting cavalry already stopped by some obstacles. It is definitely not long enough to be deployed as an effective weapon for stopping a normal, uninterrupted heavy cavalry charge.
Posts: 132 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire, UK
Sun 29 May, 2016 11:11 am
[quote="Kirk K."]
J. Nicolaysen wrote: |
Might also look into the ahlspiess, a similar weapon of a different locale. |
[ Linked Image ]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlspiess
Thanks, good tip. It looks very much like a goedendag and the spike is similar but the ahlspeiss is functionally different. It lacks the heavy club head, making it a pure thrusting weapon. It has a flat ring at the base of the spike, just like the goedendag. In both weapons the ring prevents overpenetration in a thrust. But the thin ring, spike and haft could never be used as a braced sharpened stave to stop a charging horse like the goedendag supposedly was. Bottom line: the ahlspeiss is a single-purpose thrusting weapon and the goedendag is a multi-purpose club/short pike/sharp stave. But the visual similarities are striking and it is an interesting weapon.
A question for those with pole arm sparring (fencing?) experience: would the ring on the ahlspeiss be at all useful to help parry, say, a spear thrust? Just curious.[/quote}
I have just read through all of this, interesting in the main if a little misguided at times. As for the Ahlpiess ithe disc at the base of the blade has NOTHING to do with overpenetration, it is a hand guard for goodness sake and if I remember correctly some have two such guards.For better information on all of this , and some decent photos check out John Waldmans "Hafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe: The Evolution of European Staff Weapons between1200 and 1650"
I see in another thread you were directed to this book, you would save yourself and others a lot of time if you consulted such a publication prior to coming here. It would answer a lot of your questions and give you a solid base for further research.
Posts: 645
Sun 29 May, 2016 12:38 pm
Luka Borscak wrote: |
I'm not sure if goedendag was used earlier, but I don't think it's mentioned anywhere earlier than this Flemish burgers rising. Also, Flemish burgers don't seem to have won any other significant victories and by the 15th century, I don't think there is much evidence of goedendags still being used regularly in battles. So, it doesn't seem to be anything other that improvised short polearm, relatively cheap and effective enough for fighting cavalry already stopped by some obstacles. It is definitely not long enough to be deployed as an effective weapon for stopping a normal, uninterrupted heavy cavalry charge. |
They rose few times against the dukes of Burgundy, it's not something I really researched but it was mentioned in the books by Richard Vaughan a few times. The primary sources he cites only list pikes, longbows and occasionally crossbows being used by various cities rising up against the Burgundians. However it's probably not a stretch to imagine they would have used a bewildering array of bladed polearms too.
Posts: 66 Location: vancouver bc canada
Sun 29 May, 2016 6:11 pm
I think thats just the french name
Posts: 74
Tue 31 May, 2016 12:46 am
Philip Melhop wrote: |
For better information on all of this , and some decent photos check out John Waldmans "Hafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe: The Evolution of European Staff Weapons between1200 and 1650"I see in another thread you were directed to this book, you would save yourself and others a lot of time if you consulted such a publication prior to coming here. It would answer a lot of your questions and give you a solid base for further research. |
Send me $300 and I will order up a copy immediately! 😀
Posts: 74
Tue 31 May, 2016 12:52 am
Luka Borscak wrote: |
I'm not sure if goedendag was used earlier, but I don't think it's mentioned anywhere earlier than this Flemish burgers rising. Also, Flemish burgers don't seem to have won any other significant victories and by the 15th century, I don't think there is much evidence of goedendags still being used regularly in battles. So, it doesn't seem to be anything other that improvised short polearm, relatively cheap and effective enough for fighting cavalry already stopped by some obstacles. It is definitely not long enough to be deployed as an effective weapon for stopping a normal, uninterrupted heavy cavalry charge. |
Perhaps. Quote: |
http://www.liebaart.org/goeden_e.htm
After the Battle of the Golden Spurs it was said that a Fleming with his goedendag would dare to fight against two knights on horse. Before this battle a knight was considered to be able to fight ten soldiers on foot. |
Posts: 107 Location: Croatia
Tue 31 May, 2016 1:21 am
Kirk K. wrote: |
After the Battle of the Golden Spurs it was said that a Fleming with his goedendag would dare to fight against two knights on horse. |
Yeah, and that went well;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cassel_(1328)
Posts: 123 Location: Slovakia
Mon 27 Jun, 2016 1:57 pm
Well I fully agree with the notion, that this weapon alone would play rather symbolic, than practical role in battles like Courtrai, but from looking at it, it looks really massive, one possible way to use it might have been to break limbs of horses in case a stray horseman somehow got too close and through pikes, while struggling to get out, or further, he might have generally been considerably slow and might have too little a space to maneuver. But in open order, it doesnt seem like the best idea.
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