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George Hill




Location: Atlanta Ga
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Sep, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject: Mancatcher, fact or fantasy?         Reply with quote

I'm posting this in historical, as I'm curious to know if there is any historical evidence for this 'weapon.'

It's called a mancatcher, and it's depicted well on this page: http://www.thadenarmory.com/gallery/gallery_weaponry.htm

It's on the far right in the second row of images. The idea is to catch someone in the hoop, and use it to hold them. The pre-electic answer to the taser............. but was it real, or is this just a fantasy piece?

To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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D. Bell




Location: New Zealand
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Sep, 2006 3:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These did exist historically, and as far as I can determine were still in use in the 18th century. There are a couple of examples in page 62 of 'Weapons: An International Encyclopedia From 5000 B.C. to 2000 A.D' by Diagram Group, one of which, attributed to Germany, circa 1600 AD looks just like the one you linked to. They appear to have been used by gaolers and the equivalent of police forces, the wikipedia article suggests they may have been used to drag people from horseback and capture nobles alive for ransom. Personally I would be surprised if mancatchers were intended for battlefield use.

Unfortunately trying to search for information about mancatchers online will give you links to dating sites and RPGs, however I did manage to find this page which has some good information and links.
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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Sep, 2006 3:47 am    Post subject: Catchpoles         Reply with quote

Hi ...........Yes, they are a valid historic item..............maoe correctly called "Catchpoles" ....... just what one needed for the escaping heritic or witch on the run. I dont know when the earliest records of use go back to. Heres dome pics of real ones.........


 Attachment: 14.09 KB
Late16th - early17th C, European, poss. Northern Germany.jpg


Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Steven H




Location: Boston
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Sep, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Higgins Armoury in Worcester MA has a catch-pole on display. And it looks suspiciously similar to the first piece that Mr. Cannon posted.

The catchpole at the Higgins looks big enough to catch an arm or leg not a whole person.

(I'd post my own picture of it but I just moved and can't find anything right now.)

edited to add content
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Michal Plezia
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2006 2:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I saw one egzample of the mancatcher in Krzysztofory museum in Krakow.They claimed it is oryginal item.Unfortunately I don't have a picture.It was large enough to catch a neck.
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it that is the only truth.
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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

anyone now exactly what situations these are used in? i wouldn't wont to go to battle with one of those but if your working for the inquisition it might be useful (yes i realize how twisted that sounds).
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2006 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Never mind the Inquisition, how about the just the watch dealing with any cornered criminal?
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Sean Belair
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i would certainly come quietly if the alternative was one of those
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Sep, 2006 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suspect the use is rather pedestrian--the city watch trying to subdue a drunk armed with a knife, etc.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Mon 18 Sep, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Mancatcher, fact or fantasy?         Reply with quote

George Hill wrote:
I'm posting this in historical, as I'm curious to know if there is any historical evidence for this 'weapon.'

It's called a mancatcher...

... was it real, or is this just a fantasy piece?


Although often considered mythical, the man catcher does exist and it is fearsome. Women, fearsome in the time of our ancestors, continue to be dangerous mancatchers today.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

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Laurie W
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 2:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OUCH!

Occasionally I have seen these mentioned or photos in books. Certainly would not want to be moved around with one of those enclosed around limb!

Laurie Wise-Fraser FSA Scot.

Kirby Wise-Fraser FSA Scot.& Son
Arms and Armour
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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject: Catchpole         Reply with quote

I'm not sure when I read about this but I believe that the local authoraties would use the device when pursuing runners.....someone charged or about to be "questioned" , knowing too well the fate that awaited them. I believe that the pursuer would use the device when closing behind to thrust out to try and ensnare the neck primarily as this presented the most stable target. If sucessful, I am sure they must have had the desired effect !! ......and quite instantly !!
Merv ....... KOLR
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"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

nice item. The ancestor of the taser gun ...

Good also or catcing women at parties, wouldn't it?

The one you catch is yours...
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Alex Oster




Location: Washington and Yokohama
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A less violent version could be useful today. The idea is sound enough. Let's not forget the Sodegarami, the Japanese version. Though nastier looking, it was designed to do the same thing, but by entangling the clothes.
First picture has one similar to the european version, and one much like the humane society uses today in it. Big Grin
http://www.geocities.com/koryu-bujutsu/tenjikai/event37.jpg
http://www3.kcn.ne.jp/~honjin/sodegarami1-2.jpg
http://aiur.us.es/~arashikiryu/shirotaka/mitsudogu1.jpg

The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The modern police equivalent might be the net projectile. It fires a weighted net that entangles the target.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe it is more likely that these devices acted as a substitute for handcuffs and shackles. The long handle allows the keeper to control the prisoner without getting close enough to be kicked or punched. I doubt they were used to seize a moving target.
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Alex Oster




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I disagree, for the spring actions implies the need for haste. This is more obvious with the Japanese examples.
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: Gaoler's Neck-Trap         Reply with quote

Here is a quick reference description and history on the web.......


http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kiyoweap/myth/arms...cktrap.htm

"......Type of restraining polearm used by wardens of torture chambers or dungeons. At one end is a "ring" to choke the prisoner by the throat or the scruff of the neck.

Thus in both appearance and utility, it resembles the sasumata of Japan. It is used to apprehended persons at bay or to prod the captor towards a desired destination.

As one can see from my sketch at right, the iron implement attached is actually Ω -shaped more than O-shaped. But close enough to a fully circular "ring".
It may be lined with spikes around the inside perimeter as shown, but such spikes may also be absent. *2
Note the pair of rabbit's ear-like "hooks" which obviously acts like a springing pair of barbs such that once the neck is held in, it cannot easily break loose.


In the fantasy comic Berserk (by Miura Kentaro) the inquisitor Mozgus has a disciple (interrogator/torturer) who wears a birdlike mask who carries this instrument of torture. "

Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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Alex Oster




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As for the Sasumata, I see a slight differance in retention though. The Mancatcher itself dosent require some kind of back drop to secure the ensnarement. I can see your point on the gaolers transport, but I think that there are some "caught in the act" aspects we're missing.

Here is a modern reinterpretation of the sasumata

The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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Merv Cannon




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 9:15 pm    Post subject: Gaoler's Neck-Trap         Reply with quote

Here is a quick reference description and history on the web.......


http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kiyoweap/myth/arms...cktrap.htm

"......Type of restraining polearm used by wardens of torture chambers or dungeons. At one end is a "ring" to choke the prisoner by the throat or the scruff of the neck.

Thus in both appearance and utility, it resembles the sasumata of Japan. It is used to apprehended persons at bay or to prod the captor towards a desired destination.

As one can see from my sketch at right, the iron implement attached is actually Ω -shaped more than O-shaped. But close enough to a fully circular "ring".
It may be lined with spikes around the inside perimeter as shown, but such spikes may also be absent. *2
Note the pair of rabbit's ear-like "hooks" which obviously acts like a springing pair of barbs such that once the neck is held in, it cannot easily break loose.


In the fantasy comic Berserk (by Miura Kentaro) the inquisitor Mozgus has a disciple (interrogator/torturer) who wears a birdlike mask who carries this instrument of torture. "

Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/

"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
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