Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Covered Armour Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject: Covered Armour         Reply with quote

The photo attached is from The Bayerisches Nationalmuseum. It shows many wonderful things including a few unusual items. Take note of the sword to the left with the circular finger ring and its scabbard to the right with what appears to be a place for by-knives and a cut-out for the finger-ring. Speaking the sword, it's a wondeful example of form similar to Oakeshott's later blade types with the two short fullers. The axe/polearm behind the sword hilt is also interesting as is the shield.

But what I am really curious about is the armour. It appears to be covered in fabric and I was hoping to get a discussion going about it. I'm especially eager to read thoughts as to exactly what it is thought to be.

Thank you.



 Attachment: 78.65 KB
x113764.jpg
Objects from The Bayerisches Nationalmuseum

 Attachment: 44.13 KB
x113764_big.jpg
From The Bayerisches Nationalmuseum (close-up)

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Gordon Clark




Location: Purcellville, VA
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 6:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am not much of an expert, but it seems to me that many period illustrations lack "white" armour on the torso, and instead have either covered breastplates or brigandines. For example, this one looks like a mix of brigs and covered breastplates to me:


Also included is another actual example of a 14th century Italian velvet covered breastplate I found in a quick search. (pic from http://houseasgard.com/fighting.php )

Gordon



 Attachment: 34.37 KB
SackOfCity.small.jpg


 Attachment: 47.08 KB
clothbreastplate1.jpg



Last edited by Gordon Clark on Thu 24 Aug, 2006 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was of the impression that these covered breast plates were typical of the early 15th cent., often being of two or more parts. I can't recall a source for any of this but the the globose nature of the the breast was standard in the late 14th and early 15th centuries. The Axe/polearm you mentioned I don't think is a polearm at all but rather a hurlbat. That is a small, all metal throwing axe with multiple points. The deep relief on the shield makes me suspect built up plaster on the underlying wood though i've never before heard of such and don't know what such plaster might weigh. I do expect the wood to be ply and believe that it would delaminate with such deep carving but lack any practical experience on the subject.
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,

Fabric covered breastplates are very common in the 14th to 15th. I assume it evolved with the Coat of Plates (or 'plates') and as the plates grew to just be one breastplate the farbic remained. In part this may be that it made the faulds connection easy still. I have some pictures of some in museums. There is also the corrazza in the MET that is a few large plates combined all fabric covered. In part art work is tricky as you have fabirc armour as well as items of fabric worn over armour and you have fabric covered armour to deal with to figure out which one they wear. I assume that they likely were easier and cheaper so likely continued on parallel to full suits for lesser gentry and MAA.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Wolfgang Armbruster





Joined: 03 Apr 2005

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The description says "breastplate covered with velvet, second part of the 15th century". Seems to be not too uncommon for that time. Hope this helps a bit Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Clark




Location: Purcellville, VA
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 8:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen W wrote:
I was of the impression that these covered breast plates were typical of the early 15th cent., often being of two or more parts. I can't recall a source for any of this but the the globose nature of the the breast was standard in the late 14th and early 15th centuries. The Axe/polearm you mentioned I don't think is a polearm at all but rather a hurlbat. That is a small, all metal throwing axe with multiple points. The deep relief on the shield makes me suspect built up plaster on the underlying wood though i've never before heard of such and don't know what such plaster might weigh. I do expect the wood to be ply and believe that it would delaminate with such deep carving but lack any practical experience on the subject.


The description at the houseasgard site says "late 14th century" - I agree, the globular look I think of as late 14th, early 15th.

Gordon
View user's profile Send private message
Risto Rautiainen




Location: Kontiolahti, Finland
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 176

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aren't those pics of the same breastplate? I mean look at the "holes" in the covering on the left. They're identical on both breastplates.
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Clark




Location: Purcellville, VA
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Risto Rautiainen wrote:
Aren't those pics of the same breastplate? I mean look at the "holes" in the covering on the left. They're identical on both breastplates.


They are very similar, but the lower part (faulds?) seems much more bell shaped on Nathan's pic, and narrower on the one I posted. Could that just be an angle, or perhaps the way the piece was arranged when shot?

You are right though, the holes are the same. I guess it must be the same piece.

Gordon
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for posting that Nathan.

I really like the baselard-sword.
Have not seen that one.
I was only aware of the type from one item at Herman Historica, but that one lacked grip scales.
really good to see a complete example.

I just have to make one of those some time. Next year solingen project perhaps?



 Attachment: 7.46 KB
Baselard-fingring.jpg


 Attachment: 18.91 KB
Baselard+fingring det.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wolfgang Armbruster wrote:
The description says "breastplate covered with velvet, second part of the 15th century". Seems to be not too uncommon for that time. Hope this helps a bit Happy


Thank you for the translation. This is exactly what I was hoping to know. I'd like to do some research on the velvet trade and production methods for this early time period. I have only read of such for the Renaissance (late 16th century onwards) but this earlier period is not discussed in my sources. I can only guess as to the changes that might have happened within the 100 or so years difference.

Thank you guys for noting that identical hole placement and nailing that the breastplate in the photo I posted is the very same as te other.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Thanks for posting that Nathan.

I really like the baselard-sword.
Have not seen that one.
I was only aware of the type from one item at Herman Historica, but that one lacked grip scales.
really good to see a complete example.

I just have to make one of those some time. Next year solingen project perhaps?


I Peter-
While posting this, I actually thought of you and wondered if you'd take note of the sword. I have the same auction photo saved on my system (sans description, unfortunately), and this is one of the only similar swords to it that I've seen. It's pretty unique.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
Joined: 01 Jul 2006

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did anyone notice the relative size of the two? The breastplate seems like it was made for a toddler!!! OK, so thats an exageration, but none-the-less... Or, is that sword a three-hander?
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathon Janusz





Joined: 20 Nov 2003

Posts: 467

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a pretty piece of armour. I remember seeing a color photograph of it once. . . I want to say it is in the Wisby book, but mine is currently on loan, so I can't check. Red velvet with brass (gold plated?) rivets if memory serves. . .
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,207

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't know if this helps but Valentine armouries makes a velvet covered breast plate and maybe they could tell us about any sources they used as inspiration.

http://www.varmouries.com/tran_06.html

Oh, that sword looks interesting and I agree it is either very large or the breast plate is very small.

The only other possibility is a perspective visual illusion caused by the sword being closer to the camera or the breast plate further away than initially assumed.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 8:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Torsten F.H. Wilke wrote:
Did anyone notice the relative size of the two? The breastplate seems like it was made for a toddler!!! OK, so thats an exageration, but none-the-less... Or, is that sword a three-hander?


It's difficult not knowing the scale of the wearer that was made for, but I imagine it's not so much that the breastplate is tiny as that the proportions on it aren't what we are used to seeing.

The pervading aesthetic of that period was for quite a globose chest and a comparatively high waistline. Those faulds probably start quite a bit above the natural waist of the wearer. When it's all scrunched down like that it makes it look very wide and short, when in realtity on a wearer it won't be.

I don't think the breastplate area on that is much bigger than the main plates in a lungplate brigandine.

--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 24 Aug, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder if the date placed on it is accurate and has not changed. I have abook with an identical breastplate and it is late 14th. Usually by the late 15th the faulds are attached to themselves whether covered or not. In this it is clearly attached to the fabric. Also looks like the pics are at least sixty to seventy years old so I guess alot has happened since then.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

globose breastplates stop shortly after teh rib cage area. thats tehy way they were made. this is a good representation of a late 14thc breastplate. its not late 15th cause the style is wrong. almost all bb were 2 piece by then. also in 15thc there are laws about covereing armour with fabric to hide shotty workmanship. the bb at the met is sorta a reconstruction and its made wrong at that. the faulds are done incorrectly. this one (nathan's picture) is how theyshould look. they move very nicely
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Chuck Russell




Location: WV
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Reading list: 46 books

Posts: 936

PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 4:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

also as to the size of armour. a lot of what we have left is childrens armour. of nobles, princes etc. this is due to adult armour being used and abused and reused in the next decades.
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
globose breastplates stop shortly after teh rib cage area. thats tehy way they were made. this is a good representation of a late 14thc breastplate. its not late 15th cause the style is wrong. almost all bb were 2 piece by then. also in 15thc there are laws about covereing armour with fabric to hide shotty workmanship. the bb at the met is sorta a reconstruction and its made wrong at that. the faulds are done incorrectly. this one (nathan's picture) is how theyshould look. they move very nicely


I can't see the picture Chuck. Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 690

PostPosted: Fri 25 Aug, 2006 6:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Don't know if this helps but Valentine armouries makes a velvet covered breast plate and maybe they could tell us about any sources they used as inspiration.


Hi Jean -

The Valentine piece (and other modern armourers replicate it as well) is based on the 14th century armour display at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. Unfortunately, it is not historic - Dr. Bashford Dean assembled the speculative cuirass from various bits and pieces, some deriving, if memory serves, from the Chalcis Hoard.

As cool as this piece looks, I rather wish modern armourers would stop using it as a model as the piece a) isn't historic and b) has some practical design issues. There are certainly examples of real covered breastplates, both in museums and iconographic sources, that can be replicated instead.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Covered Armour
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum