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Patrick Fitzmartin





Joined: 07 Nov 2003

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PostPosted: Sun 12 Feb, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject: Sergeants and Armigers         Reply with quote

Greetings All, I have run across the term "sergeants and armigers". Supossedly lightly armored on lighter horses, of lower social rank than knights or the "heavy" cavalry. I seriously question the source. Wink Anybody heard of these? Any input would be most appreciated. Moderators, if this is in the wrong place, by all means, move it. Big Grin Sincerely, Patrick Fitzmartin
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Michal Plezia
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 12:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sergeant is a name por professional soldier.
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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My understanding is that the term sergeant changed over time; the same may be true for armiger.

From what I've read, a sergeant was someone who was armed and equipped more or less like a knight, but lacked a knight's fee (the land needed to support the servants, etc. that were required at that rank). That said, I think the Knights Templar had a different meaning for the term sergeant.

I have only encountered one source (Western Europe in the Middle Ages: 300-1475 by Brian Tierney) which mentions the term armiger. Tierney says it is basically just a French term for a squire. Since that is the only place I have found it, I don't have much to assess that statement on. He seems to be fairly good with describing ranks and positions, though.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You will definately run across the term in Crusade era descriptions. One encounter was described in a period text (have lost my bookmark to it) as being led by a single knight, but he actually commanded 100 sergeants, and they in turn commanded "militia". Within Templar orders, the sergeant was a rank below those recognized by title as a Knight, and there were a lot more of them.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Greyson Brown




Location: Windsor, Colorado
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Feb, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
You will definately run across the term in Crusade era descriptions.


Are you refering to "sergeant," "armiger," or both here? I am mostly interested in th Hundred Yera's War, and have focused most of my energies on studying that. The Crusades are interesting, but not my true passion.

-Grey

"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Patrick Fitzmartin





Joined: 07 Nov 2003

Posts: 134

PostPosted: Tue 14 Feb, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings Gentlemen, I profoundly thank you all for your post's. My one source that I read this from is associated with Frederick of Barbarossa's efforts in the Outremer. It "glosses" much. Wink Your responses have begun to flesh the man out. While lacking title and money, he has savy and gear (don't ask where it came from Wink ) and the "elite" depend on him to make things happen. Sgt. Rock in a Kettle hat and maille if I ever saw it. Wink Just what I was looking for. Sincerely, Patrick Fitzmartin
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Feb, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greyson,

I have not studied "armigers" in any depth at all. The term Sergeants appears to originate approximately at the same time as the first Crusade pertaining to middle class knights (those without many thousands of acres and substantial numbers of tennants producing income sufficient income to do as they pleased.) Armigers, as far as I know are, are a little lower in training level and had responsibility for managing the sergeants and Knight's armour.

I would assume that an armiger would go on to become a Man at Arms or a Sergeant. So far I have had no luck tracing titles of wealthy knights back through their training periods. I would be willing to bet that they had to pass through "esquire" though.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 27 Feb, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have been reading some pretty tedious books over the past few weeks. Also, while looking through some laws of English Heraldry (was really looking for an original Code Duello - judicial combat rules over the Internet) I ran across a court definition of Armiger in 14th Century England. Anyone who applied for a Coat of Arms (yes they were regulated, patented, and lawsuits were filed for duplication or similarity) was referred to as an Armiger during the 1400's in English courts. By this point, those who applied included Esquires, merchants (purpose not necessarily being for combat), stewards, etc.

It does appear that the term Armiger changed very quickly over time, as two centuries earlier the term is believed to have represented something between an esquire and a knight.

Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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