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Harlan Hastings
Industry Professional



Location: Finger Lakes, NY
Joined: 19 Sep 2003

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 11:54 am    Post subject: Banned .... go figure         Reply with quote

A week or so ago I posted a thread titled "Going above and beyond ...." on this forum, Netsword, and Sword Forum. It contained a link to a news article describing the efforts a number of businesses were making to replace a sword that was damaged in the California fires. Albion was named as one of the six companies in the article. My purpose in posting the link was to let people know of the efforts these companies were making in ensuring that a customer of theirs was satisfied with the product they had purchased. These efforts were being made in spite of the fact that they were not responsible in any way for the damage suffered by the customers sword.

The post was subsequently deleted from SFI with no indication of why. I emailed both moderators of the General Forum inquiring as to why. The message I finally got was that the post was deemed as self-promoting for Albion. Since I don't work for Albion and they didn't ask me to post it I'm a bit confused as to how that determination was made.

Was it promoting Albion? Of course it was. They, along with five other companies, were doing something extraordinary and I felt it was worthy of public recognition. I would do the same for any company I knew of that acted in such a way.

Also in the same message, was the notification that my registration to SFI had been removed, not because of the thread, but because of "the current legal insular ban from SFI of all Albion employees, contractors and associated businesses." It's true I am an associated business (and proud to be such with a company like Albion) and have been since last February. While I have not announced that to the world, I never made it a secret. Why is it that I'm only being banned now almost a year after the fact?

For the record, I don't sell Albion's swords. Heck, I don't even own one of Albion's swords. The closest thing I have is one of Gus' Swedes that he custom built for me that I bought through Albion.

I had always thought one of the purposes of the forums (Netsword, SFI, or myArmoury) was to help educate sword enthusiasts about what was out there, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Unfortunately it seems that, in some instances, people are actively going to be prevented from doing just that.

Harlan
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Let's all be very careful, civil, and mature in this topic. I don't want any trash talking nor bashing of other forums on myArmoury.com.

This kind of stuff is somewhat useful to the community and can be talked about in civil ways. If it strays, I'll delete the posts, lock the topic, and whatever else needs to happen, though.

So, once again, tread lightly.

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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Understood Nathan . Thus I will say only this , myArmoury neither pulled the thread "going above and beyond " nor
banned the person who posted it . Therefore I think the points already been made . Nuf' said 'bout that .
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,685

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Since we're trying very hard to raise the bar, and stay productively on-topic, I too was immediately concerned when I read Harlans post. I can see a firestorm in the making.

Nathan, however, beat me to it so I'll just ditto his sentiments.

Your input and presence is always welcome here Harlan.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Dave Hahn




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 80

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 3:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i also recently had two posts deleted regarding Albion. one was a direct link to Harlan's post and the other was regarding the rare opportunity with the value of the Cdn $ and Albion's sale.

i really do value my relationship with both parties. i dont' really know what is going on, and frankly don't care to ever want to know. i just hope, that myself and others are not discriminated against for perhaps innocently posting or remarking about either party.

I like Albion. They've shown more patience and generosity than i certainly deserve. I am an outspoken, yet objective supporter, and would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone.
I am also a member of SFI. There are alot of great people there and I've been there since it's inception and can recall when that nut Warangel was paranoid about giving out his real name.

i am here to discuss this great passion of ours and share in comradery.

now if ya'll excuse me, i've got to go and spend $1200 on a videographer.

-D

Try not to take yourself too seriously.
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Shawn Mulock




Location: Calgary Alberta, Canada
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 100

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 3:40 pm    Post subject: I think...         Reply with quote

I think that SFI at least has to be very careful. From what I have gleaned from the SFI site, they are being fastidious about ensuring there are no favourites being played, what ever that's worth. Apparently they have been burned in the past and I suspect that these cases may still be ongoing and as such, they have to model a certain code of conduct to keep from ending up in further hot water, of their own boiling or not, and to ensure that any current conflicts are resolved in a fair manner.

I am in no way affiliated with SFI as anything other than a subscriber and in no way represent the creators or management of the SFI site. This pile of words is just my own opinion.

"It is not what you have, but what you have done".
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni


myArmoury Alumni

Location: Sweden
Joined: 19 Aug 2003

Posts: 723

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 5:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know from personal experience that SFI can enforce its policies in a pretty rough manner, and not always evenhandedly. The Albion/SFI situation is very touchy, at least from SFI's side, and stems from miscommunication and crossed wires. Any talk about threats of lawsuits is exaggergated, though - it was never Albion's intent to sue SFI. Still, it is good advice to keep Albion discussions to a minimum on SFI, as Harlan has learned the hard way.

SFI doesn't want promotion of other makers, but I remember from my time on SFI's staff that some of us thought that SFI might be accused of bias when the "Sword Forum Museum Store" started offering ArmArt swords, among others. As Albion and ArmArt play in pretty much the same league, I can understand why SFI's behaviour may appear biased, but the rationale is actually the alleged lawsuit.

Dave Hahn wrote:
There are alot of great people there and I've been there since it's inception and can recall when that nut Warangel was paranoid about giving out his real name.


Uhm... "WarAngel" was Adrian Ko's old nick...

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Dave Hahn




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 80

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 6:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Björn Hellqvist wrote:
I know from personal experience that SFI can enforce its policies in a pretty rough manner, and not always evenhandedly. The Albion/SFI situation is very touchy, at least from SFI's side, and stems from miscommunication and crossed wires. Any talk about threats of lawsuits is exaggergated, though - it was never Albion's intent to sue SFI. Still, it is good advice to keep Albion discussions to a minimum on SFI, as Harlan has learned the hard way.

SFI doesn't want promotion of other makers, but I remember from my time on SFI's staff that some of us thought that SFI might be accused of bias when the "Sword Forum Museum Store" started offering ArmArt swords, among others. As Albion and ArmArt play in pretty much the same league, I can understand why SFI's behaviour may appear biased, but the rationale is actually the alleged lawsuit.

Dave Hahn wrote:
There are alot of great people there and I've been there since it's inception and can recall when that nut Warangel was paranoid about giving out his real name.


Uhm... "WarAngel" was Adrian Ko's old nick...


i know Bjorn, or should I say HellQuest? That statement is just an old joke between another old Highlander forumite and myself

Big Grin

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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni


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Location: New Hampshire
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 7:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No worries Harlan 'ol buddy ..... Santa knows who's been naughty or nice !

It's just the degrees of coal at this point , Mac

'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni


myArmoury Alumni

Location: Sweden
Joined: 19 Aug 2003

Posts: 723

PostPosted: Tue 02 Dec, 2003 11:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dave Hahn wrote:
Björn Hellqvist wrote:


Uhm... "WarAngel" was Adrian Ko's old nick...


i know Bjorn, or should I say HellQuest? That statement is just an old joke between another old Highlander forumite and myself

Big Grin


You are an evil man, Dave... Wink

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Ciaran Flanagan




Location: Dublin, Ireland
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2003 3:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With respect to Nathans wishes I will refrain from making any personal comments regarding the hows and whys of being banned from SFI.

I was also recently banned for making the statement "we are not allowed to discuss this in SFI" in regards to a thread on another forum. I was contacted and asked to rephraze it which I immediatly did. After that Adrian made complaints to the admin staff of that other forum where I had moderated. This resulted in the loss of my moderation status. Further discussinon with adrian regarding why he had acted in such a manner ended up in him simply banning me from SFI. Upon investigation and direct contact with the different parties involved It turns out that Adrians reasoning for his actions were completly unjustified. I never did get my moderation status returned and I am still banned from SFI. This is what can happen for writing a single line on SFI.



C

Ciaran

A wise man is someone who has travelled to heaven and hell and knows the difference.
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,685

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2003 4:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tread carefully gentlemen.

Don't let this become an SFI gripe'fest.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Ciaran Flanagan




Location: Dublin, Ireland
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2003 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wholeheartedly agree patrick, thats what netsword is for (j/k)....

Seriously tho....there is a difference between telling your story and a bitch-fest, Believe you me I would like nothing better then to rant on and on as Id imagine many others would as well but hopefully that will not happen.


C

Ciaran

A wise man is someone who has travelled to heaven and hell and knows the difference.
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Robert Zamoida




Location: Davis Monthan AFB, AZ
Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 228

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2003 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a shame what happened Harlan; many of us here know from personal experience just how wonderful the people at Albion are. For those who don't, however, we have you and Jay to share your experiences, and I think ultimately that's the most important thing.
Rob Zamoida
"When your life is on the line, you want to make use of all your tools. No warrior should be willing to die with his swords at his sides, without having made use of his tools."
-Miyamoto Mushashi, Gorin no Sho
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,831

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2003 8:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

May I suggest an obscure corner of usenet for the Banned-Aid benefit, featuring this group of banned-ettes? (humor guys, humor)

Seriously,
It's tough when you have to approach any gathering with all PC anntenae erect. It exists on some of the short edge forums as well and the best truce that can be drawn is to leave each to their own. Nix on crossposting and drawing opponents across the moats.

Sad but true.

Cheers guys, what Mac said
although some might be purty happy with coal this winter

GC
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni


myArmoury Alumni

Location: Sweden
Joined: 19 Aug 2003

Posts: 723

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2003 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick is right - don't let this turn into an SFI-bashing thread. SFI has done a lot for the communiy in the past, and we would hardly be here today if it hadn't been for Sword Forum. We can always question the direction things have taken, but it should be clear that SFI isn't guilty of irregular bans alone. I know of an SFI and myArmoury regular who was banned from a respected discussion forum, just because he had the audacity to discuss a certain "forum x" discussion on SFI. We are happy that we haven't had to ban anyone here, and would like to keep it that way.

As for the recent ban, Harlan was on my list of "people most likely getting banned for pro-Albion posts". This might sound cynical, but given what I've seen of the moderation practices, I'm not all that surprised. It is best to avoid posting about Albion on SFI, as it is (or at least was back when I was on SFI's staff) touch-and-go whether Albion posts are to be allowed at all. myArmoury is a better place for Albion posts, as the Albion staff, craftsmen and designers are readily available here. Still, it is a sorry state of affairs when we cannot discuss what we like without having to keep an eye on sword politics.

Edited to insert an "isn't" in "it should be clear that SFI isn't guilty of irregular bans alone".

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Last edited by Björn Hellqvist on Wed 03 Dec, 2003 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ciaran Flanagan




Location: Dublin, Ireland
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2003 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

SFI was a great place. Many many people owe it a huge debt of gratitude. Its a marvelous forum that was populated by a lot of people I respect and admire, many of which have already posted on this thread. I admit I still browse through SFI and to be honest It kills me to do so nowadays. Its become a cesspit of misinformation again. There are very very few of the knowlagble posters (and Im not nessisarily one of them Laughing Out Loud ) there anymore and I constantly stumble upon posts that I just wish I could point them at least in the right direction web-wise or be able to pass on information gleaned over the years. I can no longer do this, like many others here, and the community suffers because of it. This only leads me to believe that SFI has essentially lost its way. Its now formost a busness that does everything in its power to protect itself and its buisness interests and is no longer focused on educating and enlightening its participents. Its like a college that has fired all its professors and now a handfull of admin staff and some students are running the show. Ive never had a beef with SFI, Ive had disagreements with adrian tho. The man and the machine are two completly seperate entities from where I stand, tho its been proved time and time again the man does not realise this.

Ciaran

Ciaran

A wise man is someone who has travelled to heaven and hell and knows the difference.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec, 2003 10:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Okay, we're done here.. for now.

I'll start another topic in the next few days where we can all discuss some of these issues in a different context. That way, we can try to talk about some of the fracturing things affecting this small community and brainstorm some ideas to bridge these gaps with complimentary actions that will benefit this hobby.

Until I post that new topic, this is on hold. Bitch session done.

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