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Isaac D Rainey
Location: Evansville Indiana Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 65
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Posted: Thu 06 Apr, 2023 6:09 am Post subject: Osprey and Sources |
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Osprey is certainly a staple for people interested in military history and arms and armor. It is often the "gateway drug" for a lot of people into this interest. I try to avoid using Osprey as a source when citing things for my own work, but I often use them as a jumping off point, or to look for some extra sources.
However, occasionally therein lies the problem, some Osprey books do not have sources/bibliography listed in them. Authors like David Nicolle, Ross Cowan and Ian Heath cite sources. But I have come across several that don't have a bibliography at all. I know that Osprey is not an academic publication, but there should be a line drawn here. It is simply not acceptable to publish a work on any historical topic without any sources acknowledged. Unless the author witnessed the events themselves (doubtful, unless they poses eternal life), they need to show where they got their information. Using the work of other historian's works without citation or acknowledgement is at its best disrespectful, and at its worst, thievery.
I don't wish to name names, I just want these authors to do better, because some of them write good content. I just cannot trust or use their content because they don't provide sources (the latest I have is from 2015). This will also make me hesitant to buy any future Osprey books unless there is a guarantee of some kind of bibliography, or it is buy a trusted author. This isn't much to ask for, not citing work is simply lazy. I want Osprey to do better because they are one of the publishers that led to me getting an MA in history, and I want them to continue to contribute to this community.
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Dan Howard
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Posted: Thu 06 Apr, 2023 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Osprey is useless for beginners because you need a working knowledge of the subject to know which ones are any good. Most are only useful for the photos of extant artefacts There are some exceptions like the authors you mentioned but not many.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Isaac D Rainey
Location: Evansville Indiana Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 65
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr, 2023 6:37 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't go as far as to call them "useless." Part of getting into an interest is slowly figuring out how to sort out reliable and unreliable information. A basic Google search of most Osprey authors is enough to figure out reliability. Another plus for Osprey is their low cost. Most of the best arms and armour books are out-of-print and horrifically expensive. So unless they have university access, or have a good library nearby, it is a decent option that isn't forums and Youtubers. The content of Osprey has improved immensely in the past decade or so, it just seems to be a few "legacy" authors that are still holding them back with their bad practices.
I do get what you are saying though. It is difficult to "unlearn" bad information once it takes hold, but I believe that is a given in any field. Personally I would rather people have a few bits of misinformation in their heads than not be interested in this stuff at all.
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Dan Kary
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr, 2023 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Here's a question I have about these (as somebody who has a TON of them): is the information in these things wrong or just un-cited? Of course, if they are un-cited then the layperson can't check. But do experts who know the sources have a consensus that these things are basically spreading around disinformation? I think these are for just people with a casual interest in history who want to read about the topic. They are not for people writing their dissertations, or trying to publish in an academic journal. Of course it would be nice to have everything cited, but if the information is accurate, doesn't that at least add to their value beyond pictures?
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 341
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr, 2023 8:15 am Post subject: |
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As another owner of many Ospreys, they come in good, bad and indifferent. Author quality is something to look for but there is a danger that they have "go to" writers, who may know very little about the topic. I have some good David Nicolle Ospreys and some poor ones, where he clearly doesn't know the subject well. Osprey can be very reluctant to either modernise their coverage, perhaps with a new author, or even produce revised editions. This means that sometimes coverage can be dated.
Another thing to bear in mind is that Osprey have numerous series of books (Men-at-arms, Elite, Campaign, Warrior etc.) and each have different editorial requirements. So, some have extensive bibliographies, some minimal or non-existent. Some series come with glossaries and indexes, others don't. I personally am pleased with the small group of Weapon series books I have - they wouldn't meet the needs of a scholar or collector I'm sure, but they are a good, well-illustrated introduction. These days, though, I'd be cautious at investing in a Men-at-Arms title.
Anthony Clipsom
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Isaac D Rainey
Location: Evansville Indiana Joined: 29 Sep 2012
Posts: 65
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr, 2023 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Dan Kary wrote: | Here's a question I have about these (as somebody who has a TON of them): is the information in these things wrong or just un-cited? Of course, if they are un-cited then the layperson can't check. But do experts who know the sources have a consensus that these things are basically spreading around disinformation? I think these are for just people with a casual interest in history who want to read about the topic. They are not for people writing their dissertations, or trying to publish in an academic journal. Of course it would be nice to have everything cited, but if the information is accurate, doesn't that at least add to their value beyond pictures? |
The problem I have is mainly the lack of sources I have encountered in a few. Personally, I take even the stuff published for casual interested just as seriously as some of the academic published stuff. I do because I believe scholarship should be as accessible as possible. Otherwise, I don't know why I do history if I am only writing it for other historians. Some academics honestly have a very poor understanding of arms and armor, but still publish on the topic, or have bad information related to arms and armor in their broader histories (honestly, quite a few historians writing on the "military revolution" debate seem to fall into this category).
I think what Clipsom mentioned is the core of the problem. Men-at-Arms, Warrior, and similar series are not held to the same editorial standards, and their "favorites" can get away with things that would have you torn apart in more serious settings. I do also agree with him that the weapon series is very good. I only have two (Early Military Rifles and Handgonne) and they are just as good as any academic article.
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Ryan S.
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Posted: Fri 07 Apr, 2023 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Dan Kary wrote: | Here's a question I have about these (as somebody who has a TON of them): is the information in these things wrong or just un-cited? Of course, if they are un-cited then the layperson can't check. But do experts who know the sources have a consensus that these things are basically spreading around disinformation? I think these are for just people with a casual interest in history who want to read about the topic. They are not for people writing their dissertations, or trying to publish in an academic journal. Of course it would be nice to have everything cited, but if the information is accurate, doesn't that at least add to their value beyond pictures? |
You make a good point. I think the problem with them, is the problem with a lot of things. I haven’t read a lot of Osprey books, but the causal tone and lack of nuisance and depth is, in my opinion, acceptable. However, there is a lot of bad information going around, and some of it spread by professional historians and over basic things like blood grooves. This is an issue in other fields too, although it is a bit different in arms and armour because so many of the expertise comes from amateurs. It is very easy to make a mistake just by relying on published books. I recently stumbled upon a reddit thread that criticized a youtuber, who was just repeating facts about ancient Greece that are repeated everywhere. The critic, a historian, then suggested an internet forum as the best source.
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Sean Manning
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Posted: Sat 08 Apr, 2023 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Dan Kary wrote: | Here's a question I have about these (as somebody who has a TON of them): is the information in these things wrong or just un-cited? Of course, if they are un-cited then the layperson can't check. But do experts who know the sources have a consensus that these things are basically spreading around disinformation? I think these are for just people with a casual interest in history who want to read about the topic. They are not for people writing their dissertations, or trying to publish in an academic journal. Of course it would be nice to have everything cited, but if the information is accurate, doesn't that at least add to their value beyond pictures? |
It depends completely on the volume! Some have accurate text but howlers in the illustrations (eg. soldiers wearing a backplate as a breastplate). Some were alright when they came out but say things we now know are wrong. Some are explicitly fictional like https://ospreypublishing.com/ca/nazi-occult-9781780965987/
Osprey books are like TV documentaries and podcasts and vlogs: you have to already know the subject to know which you can trust. They do publish books on obscure topics which most trade publishers would not consider, and they commission some excellent historical art (although like everything else Sturgeon's Law applies).
The most important thing to know about Osprey books is that they usually pay a flat fee for all rights forever. So frequent authors have a time budget and when that time runs out, they have to stop working and switch to something else that pays, even if they have not been able to verify something. Just like any other worker getting paid by the piece!
weekly writing ~ material culture
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