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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Fri 28 May, 2021 6:11 pm    Post subject: 4th-5th century spatha with wide guard         Reply with quote

Scroll down a bit https://www.roma-victrix.com/summa-divisio/armamentarium/pugiones-gladii-et-spathae/spathae-i-v-sec-d-c.html Any info on this? Is it legit and is it roman?
Leonard Parker
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 29 May, 2021 4:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wacky. Mind you, the late Roman stuff isn't my strong area, but it's certainly not like anything I've ever seen. So my guess is that either someone dropped a later guard (maybe MUCH later) onto the tang, or someone took a much later sword and stuck that chape on the tip. OR all 3 parts were just stuck together and don't really go together.

Some of the other blades on that page, well, let's just say I'm a little skeptical of their dates, not that "4th-5th century" is very precise. Just gut reactions.

Matthew
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Victor R.




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PostPosted: Sat 29 May, 2021 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you positive it's a guard, or potentially a scabbard fitting? The tabs on the ends could be part of a suspension system of some sort. Given the prevalence of organic grips, including pommel and guard, in that era, and the presence of the chape, I'd lean more towards fitting than cross. Speculation for certain, but possibly within the real of reason.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Sat 29 May, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's actually not that wide. If the tang is 13 cm long then the guard (if that's what it is) would be about 8.5 cm wide. There are plenty of guards wider in this period. It's the shape that's unique.
Leonard Parker
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Matthew Amt




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PostPosted: Sun 30 May, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:
Are you positive it's a guard, or potentially a scabbard fitting? The tabs on the ends could be part of a suspension system of some sort. Given the prevalence of organic grips, including pommel and guard, in that era, and the presence of the chape, I'd lean more towards fitting than cross. Speculation for certain, but possibly within the real of reason.


It's MUCH more like some later guard than *any* suspension system I've seen, Roman or not. So I'm still voting for some kind of mashup.

Matthew
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 02 Jun, 2021 5:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another roman sword with a unique guard (half way down) https://www.academia.edu/41330119/The_Roman_sword_from_the_Przeworsk_culture_cemetery_at_Jadowniki_Mokre_Ma%C5%82opolskie_province

[edit] Here's a better pic: https://frisiacoasttrail.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/millingen-aan-de-rijn-ad-1-50.jpg?w=1024 Maybe this is just a normal guard plate that's folded over. I can't tell.

Leonard Parker
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Fri 25 Jun, 2021 6:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These are migration period swords from museums in Russia: https://www.academia.edu/38112923/Great_Migration_period_Swords_in_the_museum_collections_in_Central_Russia
It's a small picture but look at the sword laying down in the first group of pics. I don't read Russian but it looks like I'm seeing iv to vi century at top for these.

Leonard Parker
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Matthew Amt




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PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun, 2021 4:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Here's another roman sword with a unique guard (half way down) https://www.academia.edu/41330119/The_Roman_sword_from_the_Przeworsk_culture_cemetery_at_Jadowniki_Mokre_Ma%C5%82opolskie_province

[edit] Here's a better pic: https://frisiacoasttrail.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/millingen-aan-de-rijn-ad-1-50.jpg?w=1024 Maybe this is just a normal guard plate that's folded over. I can't tell.


That's a very common first century BC Mainz-pattern gladius, with a brass guard plate that's bent along the middle. It would have been flat, and set into the base of a wooden guard. So it's not a guard by itself.

Quote:
These are migration period swords from museums in Russia: https://www.academia.edu/38112923/Great_Migration_period_Swords_in_the_museum_collections_in_Central_Russia
It's a small picture but look at the sword laying down in the first group of pics. I don't read Russian but it looks like I'm seeing iv to vi century at top for these.


You mean the one lying on the newspapers? If you're looking at the little triangular feature at the tip of the guard, could that just be something printed on the paper, not on the sword? Otherwise, it's a tiny photo of a lump of rust...

Sorry, I'm not helping, there!

Matthew
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Sat 26 Jun, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, it's too small to tell. Here's an earlier carving with a wide guard: https://holylandphotos.org/browse.asp?s=1,3,7,20,110&img=TWNAPM08
[Edit] Probably meant to be a Greek sword.

Leonard Parker
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Alex Indman




Location: NYC
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2021 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
These are migration period swords from museums in Russia: https://www.academia.edu/38112923/Great_Migration_period_Swords_in_the_museum_collections_in_Central_Russia
It's a small picture but look at the sword laying down in the first group of pics. I don't read Russian but it looks like I'm seeing iv to vi century at top for these.

I read the article. About this sword's guard it says "guard is diamond shaped, up to 10cm wide (8cm preserved), 1cm thick".
There is no precise dating given, just a range of late IV to early VI cc.
Actually the pictures immediately to the right of the old one you were looking at are of the same sword, taken recently.

Hope this helps.

Alex.
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Matthew Amt




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Jun, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Yes, it's too small to tell. Here's an earlier carving with a wide guard: https://holylandphotos.org/browse.asp?s=1,3,7,20,110&img=TWNAPM08
[Edit] Probably meant to be a Greek sword.


Definitely Greek, and probably wildly misdated! 4th century *BC*, I'd say, possibly 5th.

Matthew
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Mon 28 Jun, 2021 4:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Alex. Yes it helps.
Leonard Parker
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Aug, 2021 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: 4th-5th century spatha with wide guard         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Scroll down a bit https://www.roma-victrix.com/summa-divisio/armamentarium/pugiones-gladii-et-spathae/spathae-i-v-sec-d-c.html Any info on this? Is it legit and is it roman?


The sword seems legit but it's not Roman. It's of Hunnish / associated tribes / steppe nomad origin. Most likely, these swords were inspired by Sassanid swords, and perhaps Han dynasty jian as well.

This one:
https://holylandphotos.org/browse.asp?s=1,3,7,20,110&img=TWNAPM08
may be Sassanid, in my opinion. Although Greek, like Matthew Amt suggested is also possible.

You can find more information here:
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=197...mp;start=0
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2021 1:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul, I think you're right. It has a similar look to this one from the crimea: https://get.google.com/albumarchive/112795803340452839061/album/AF1QipPr9n2PyJh67PqUTAiq0M5Pp0rB_eAA6YrJehzC
Leonard Parker
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