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Jonathan Hodge




Location: East Tennessee
Joined: 18 Sep 2015

Posts: 121

PostPosted: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 2:00 pm    Post subject: Z Scabbard Belt         Reply with quote

Im preparing to make a scabbard belt for a sword and would like to try the Z style often seen in 12th-13th century. Im wondering if anyone has made it in one piece. I can conceive of how to make it in two pieces, but it would greet or make it one.

An example can be seen in ONB Cod.507 Reiner Musterbuch, f003r.



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Lloyd Winter




Location: Los Angeles
Joined: 27 Aug 2011

Posts: 184

PostPosted: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Heres how I made my version of that.
Its actually 3 pieces, one strap each for the top and bottom and one piece for the collar.

The pic contains a paper pattern, an unmounted collar, sans straps, and the finished version. The unmounted one came out way too long. I had to do a couple of versions before I got it right.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qgcGm9MNphNzdXUe9

You might also want to take a look at this thread from several years ago.

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29560&highlight=

Hope this helps.

Why then the worlds mine oyster
Which I with sword will open.
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Jonathan Hodge




Location: East Tennessee
Joined: 18 Sep 2015

Posts: 121

PostPosted: Sat 04 Apr, 2020 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks so much for this.
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Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Apr, 2020 6:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jonathan,

One thing to consider when making a scabbard of this type. If you are going for a scabbard for the 12th. C. the sword would hang vertically. Off set hanging scabbards were not used at that time- at least if we follow the illustrations from the period. Off set belt suspensions begin to show up in the 13th. th. C.

Here is a picture of a scabbard I had mad by Jeff Helmes.



Notice how the scabbard belt has the sword hanging vertically- there is no off set belt at the bottom.

It is based on this example.

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Johannes Zenker





Joined: 15 Sep 2014

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sun 05 Apr, 2020 12:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Curious that the picture in the first post shows an actual "Z" instead of the inverted "Z" we more commonly see.

While I reckon that it might have been a slight lapse on the artist's behalf, it would also be possible to do it that way around... it just seems less convenient and very kludgy with no apparent benefits.

Has anyone ever seen the actual "Z" in an extant example or reproduction?
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Jonathan Hodge




Location: East Tennessee
Joined: 18 Sep 2015

Posts: 121

PostPosted: Sun 05 Apr, 2020 4:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Jeremy V. Krause"]Hi Jonathan,

One thing to consider when making a scabbard of this type. If you are going for a scabbard for the 12th. C. the sword would hang vertically. Off set hanging scabbards were not used at that time- at least if we follow the illustrations from the period. Off set belt suspensions begin to show up in the 13th. th. C.

Thanks for this Jeremy. I am looking to do an offset belt suspension like what is seen moving more into 13th century. I failed to make that distinction and I appreciate you clarifying!
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Maciej K.
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 06 Jul 2006

Posts: 242

PostPosted: Mon 06 Apr, 2020 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Three points:

1) Johannes Zenker is right that we have no other evidence for Z-style, just some depictions on illustrations. That can be just artist lapse, as he said. There are many of them in manuscripts. However, in Morgan Bible, we can see both Z and S style, even on one illustration. Still, no other evidence. No finds, even on more detailed sculptures we always see S style. Actually that is the most reasonable method to keep the upper belt slightly raised (at an angle) and this way keep the sword intentionally at an angle. As far as we will not have finds of the Z style, as far we can`t claim it was used.

2) Jeremy and Jonathan, the off set belting system for scabbards was used since around 1100 and dissapears around 1400. We know depictions from this period range. In 12th century it already is VERY COMMON belting system. Plenty examples Happy Actually even that illustration above is from German 12th century manuscript Happy

3) the "one-piece" of leather method for the off set belting (it is still off set) w know actually from one existing example. It is very nice, but rather not common method with stitching leather as two-layeres together and attaching belts to this. It seems quite strange and does not use full leather strength. The stitch will never give you strength as a solid leather. Simply: why cut off the belts and then stitch them together? Happy I think this could be some later processing / changing or repairing, but that`s just hypothesis at this case.

We can be sure they use many variations of this system, with different lacing the straps, trying some variants, etc. All this we found as far is different and no two the same strapping. What I`m trying to say: we must be cautious and study full spectrum of all available sources, trying to find out WHY it was made like that, instead simple HOW it was made.

Medieval Swords - www.artofswordmaking.com
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Harry Marinakis




PostPosted: Mon 06 Apr, 2020 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maciej
Did you publish your book on scabbards yet?
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Maciej K.
Industry Professional



Location: Poland
Joined: 06 Jul 2006

Posts: 242

PostPosted: Mon 06 Apr, 2020 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry Marinakis wrote:
Maciej
Did you publish your book on scabbards yet?


Harry, thanks for asking. The answer is: not yet. It definitely needs more time. Epecially if I work at the same time in my workshops, making research and writing many articles. But it will be published for sure Wink

Medieval Swords - www.artofswordmaking.com
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Jonathan Hodge




Location: East Tennessee
Joined: 18 Sep 2015

Posts: 121

PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr, 2020 2:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maciej K. wrote:
Three points:

1) Johannes Zenker is right that we have no other evidence for Z-style, just some depictions on illustrations. That can be just artist lapse, as he said. There are many of them in manuscripts. However, in Morgan Bible, we can see both Z and S style, even on one illustration. Still, no other evidence. No finds, even on more detailed sculptures we always see S style. Actually that is the most reasonable method to keep the upper belt slightly raised (at an angle) and this way keep the sword intentionally at an angle. As far as we will not have finds of the Z style, as far we can`t claim it was used.

2) Jeremy and Jonathan, the off set belting system for scabbards was used since around 1100 and dissapears around 1400. We know depictions from this period range. In 12th century it already is VERY COMMON belting system. Plenty examples Happy Actually even that illustration above is from German 12th century manuscript Happy

3) the "one-piece" of leather method for the off set belting (it is still off set) w know actually from one existing example. It is very nice, but rather not common method with stitching leather as two-layeres together and attaching belts to this. It seems quite strange and does not use full leather strength. The stitch will never give you strength as a solid leather. Simply: why cut off the belts and then stitch them together? Happy I think this could be some later processing / changing or repairing, but that`s just hypothesis at this case.

We can be sure they use many variations of this system, with different lacing the straps, trying some variants, etc. All this we found as far is different and no two the same strapping. What I`m trying to say: we must be cautious and study full spectrum of all available sources, trying to find out WHY it was made like that, instead simple HOW it was made.


Maciej, thank you for this info. I am most definitely referring to the "S" style - or backwards Z that is much more common. It just so happens that the example I chose does actually have a "Z" and not the more common "S" - thank you for pointing this out. I did not know you were in the process of writing a book on scabbards, but now I will look forward to its release!

Do you have any advice or recommendations about how to construct the "S" scabbard belt in a single piece?
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