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Hass Fernen





Joined: 05 Feb 2019

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Fri 01 Mar, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Extant examples of XVIIIc blades with 'S' shaped crossgurad?         Reply with quote

Hello, I am looking for examples of type XVIIIc blades with 'S' shaped cross guards and fishtail pommel? Are there any such examples in museums or even in art?

I'm also wondering whether enamelling was done in the late 15th the early 16th century on scabbard fittings like in the 13th century, and if you have any examples of these.

In addition to this I am looking images of painted scabbards occurring in the late 15th century to early 16th century.

Also any examples or art of serpent designs in medieval art from the 15th to early 16th century a more slithery and knotted serpent than the attached, similar to viking style serpents (be it on scabbards, fittings, paintings, clothing)

Time line doesn't have to exact, preferably from the late to early 15th and 16th century, but anything from the 1400s to the end of the 1500s is good for me.

I included some examples of what I am trying to describe



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munich.jpg
'S' shaped cross guard

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draco_ursa_minor.jpg
serpent

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2zovmae.jpg
Painted scabbard

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Enamelled belt buckle [ Download ]

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Type XVIIIc blade (Albion Alexandrian) [ Download ]
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 01 Mar, 2019 5:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hass,

I can't say regarding serpent designs for scabbards, but the Visconti of Italy sometimes used a serpentine dragon motif on some of their coins. Attached is a coin of Bernab˛ Visconti (1323-1385 AD). His brother Galeazzo Visconti (1320-1378 AD) also had coins struck with a similar dragon motif; however, I personally like the execution of the design on Bernab˛'s coins better. This design was still in use during the reign of Filippo Maria Visconti (died 1447 AD). After the death of Filippo with no male heir, the Golden Ambrosian Republic briefly held power, only to fall to Francesco Sforza.



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Bernabo Visconti.jpg

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Hass Fernen





Joined: 05 Feb 2019

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat 02 Mar, 2019 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Hass,

I can't say regarding serpent designs for scabbards, but the Visconti of Italy sometimes used a serpentine dragon motif on some of their coins. Attached is a coin of Bernab˛ Visconti (1323-1385 AD). His brother Galeazzo Visconti (1320-1378 AD) also had coins struck with a similar dragon motif; however, I personally like the execution of the design on Bernab˛'s coins better. This design was still in use during the reign of Filippo Maria Visconti (died 1447 AD). After the death of Filippo with no male heir, the Golden Ambrosian Republic briefly held power, only to fall to Francesco Sforza.


That is quite nice looking, I've also been looking at manuscripts and found some images I'm looking for in regards to serpents. Thank you for the reply.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sat 02 Mar, 2019 8:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regarding your question about the fish tail pommel, "S" guard and XVIII.c blade:

My initial impression is that this is one of the blade and hilt combinations that seems vaguely plausible, yet represents a "Frankenstein" combination. From what I know of Type XVIII.c, they are an earlier type of blade in the Type 18 family. Many date to circa 1410-1420 AD, although The Sword: Form and Thought lists one dated to circa 1350 AD. There does not seem to be much evidence of this blade type persisting after this date. By contrast, both fishtail pommels and "S" guards appear at least a couple of decades later than 1420 AD. Even then, I'm not aware of any antique swords that combined a fishtail pommel and an "S" guard. I won't go so far to assume it was never done, but I have seen zero evidence of it. Also, you tend to have certain styles of cross and pommel paired together on genuine antique swords, and fishtails are paired with other styles of guard. In conclusion, I think you'll end up with a peculiar sword that does not look right at all.

Here's a thread showing fishtail pommels and the types of guard they pair with. Notice these swords are XVIII.b if they are long swords; no XVIII.c blades are shown: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=133...ail+pommel


Last edited by Craig Peters on Sun 03 Mar, 2019 5:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sat 02 Mar, 2019 9:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By the way, the early XVIII.c sword I mentioned has a fairly wide but narrow bar cross. It's pommel is similar to Albion's Alexandria. If you had a sword like this made, paired with a scabbard stamped with the motif of the Visconti dragon, you'd have a a decently historically plausible set.
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Hass Fernen





Joined: 05 Feb 2019

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 04 Mar, 2019 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
By the way, the early XVIII.c sword I mentioned has a fairly wide but narrow bar cross. It's pommel is similar to Albion's Alexandria. If you had a sword like this made, paired with a scabbard stamped with the motif of the Visconti dragon, you'd have a a decently historically plausible set.



Yea, now that you mention it I'm thinking of going for something like this (xviiic blade with s guard and disc pommel). That link was very helpful, it gave me more ideas, Thank you. I was basing my initial design off of a drawing by Peter Johnsson, that was on the XVIIIc blade page on myArmoury. I have included an image for it. By any chance do you know where I can find images of the original iin this picture?

Thanks again for your help



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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 04 Mar, 2019 6:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm wondering if the sketch might have been inspired by the sword of Svante Nilsson Sture: https://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-svante.htm
I'm not sure how the blade of this sword is classified in Oakeshott's Typology; it might be a Type XVIII.c. You'd have to ask Peter, himself. At any rate, you can see the classic Type XVIII.c swords (like the one the Albion Alexandria is based upon) do not normally have an "S" shape guard.
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Hass Fernen





Joined: 05 Feb 2019

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Wed 06 Mar, 2019 6:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
I'm wondering if the sketch might have been inspired by the sword of Svante Nilsson Sture: https://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-svante.htm
I'm not sure how the blade of this sword is classified in Oakeshott's Typology; it might be a Type XVIII.c. You'd have to ask Peter, himself. At any rate, you can see the classic Type XVIII.c swords (like the one the Albion Alexandria is based upon) do not normally have an "S" shape guard.


Funny enough I did message Peter, he said "The illustration is a generic representation of the sword type. It is a mix of features from many different swords and drawn to look like a sword of south German or Italian origin."
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Dennis Courneyea





Joined: 24 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Mar, 2019 12:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I keep seeing that type 12 (S shaped) guards are typical for XVIIIc swords, and the idea seems to have come from Ewart Oakeshott himself, yet I've never seen any evidence to back this up. Are there any examples of this combination, either in art, or extant swords? The, admittedly few, historic examples I've seen of this type all looked Albion's Alexandria, having what is I guess a hexagonal/octagonal type 4 guard (or is it a type 8 guard without the Úcusson?).
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Dennis Courneyea





Joined: 24 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Mar, 2019 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dennis Courneyea wrote:
I keep seeing that type 12 (S shaped) guards are typical for XVIIIc swords, and the idea seems to have come from Ewart Oakeshott himself, yet I've never seen any evidence to back this up. Are there any examples of this combination, either in art, or extant swords? The, admittedly few, historic examples I've seen of this type all looked Albion's Alexandria, having what is I guess a hexagonal/octagonal type 4 guard (or is it a type 8 guard without the Úcusson?).


My suspicion is that this was an editing error, that it is XVIIId (early side sword) not XVIIIc blades which tend to have type 12 guards.

Though it is probably an ahistoric combination, I think an XVIIIc with S shaped guard and fishtail pommel would be aesthetically pleasing sword.
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Hass Fernen





Joined: 05 Feb 2019

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon 18 Mar, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dennis Courneyea wrote:
Dennis Courneyea wrote:
I keep seeing that type 12 (S shaped) guards are typical for XVIIIc swords, and the idea seems to have come from Ewart Oakeshott himself, yet I've never seen any evidence to back this up. Are there any examples of this combination, either in art, or extant swords? The, admittedly few, historic examples I've seen of this type all looked Albion's Alexandria, having what is I guess a hexagonal/octagonal type 4 guard (or is it a type 8 guard without the Úcusson?).


My suspicion is that this was an editing error, that it is XVIIId (early side sword) not XVIIIc blades which tend to have type 12 guards.

Though it is probably an ahistoric combination, I think an XVIIIc with S shaped guard and fishtail pommel would be aesthetically pleasing sword.


Exactly. I see them mentioned and in illustration by Oakeshott and Peter Johnsson, but never in art or actual pieces (s guard with type xviiic blade, but not fishtail pommel). The editing error is probably the best explanation for this, but peter johnsson himself has made illustrations with type xviic blade and s shaped guard and attributed it to a combination of extant pieces as I mentioned earlier. Which, I would like to see myself (the extant pieces he got inspiration from)

I too think it would be very nice looking, with a guard that is s shaped but as long as the alexandria guard (around 10 inches). Though not historically accurate.
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