Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Need help identifying sword dated 1715. Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 489

PostPosted: Sat 16 Sep, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Need help identifying sword dated 1715.         Reply with quote

Can anyone identify if this was a regulation model sword? The blade is dated 1715 and was made in Solingen. It looks like it was originally a haudegen or walloon style sword. The pommel looks very unusual though, too simple and cylindrical, not like others Ive seen.

I found this in a flea market in Mongolia by the way.

The blade has what looks like a double eagle on one side and an inscription on the other:

"Vinat - syn zaar so mayest Peter ???? 1715"








'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
View user's profile Send private message
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

This is a particularly interesting one... because it is so odd. I have a few ideas which might help.. but overall I think it is a very weird ‘fake’ --possibly including a real part but this is difficult to say. I have after a few hours come up with a theory, but I am going to take you through the process.

1.) The writing going straight to the very edge, is either indicative of a forgery, or the fact that the blade was heavily ground down (which there are other indications of). If we look at the writing itself, the y with a diaeresis (˙) is only really used in Dutch, which I can read fairly well --but not any of the writing here.. several of the words look Dutch, but there are certain Russian/Livonian/Finnic/Estonian words.. which I cannot read, but a dictionary can help. After about an hour or so of considering this... I am pretty certain the last bit is a written form of Peter Alexeyevich (Алексе́евич) or a Dutch? German? form of it. Zaar the third word could be from Tzar… and the first is I think not Vinat, but Vivat.. further Ma˙est is Maijest. So we are looking at a translation, a dynamic equivalence.. rather than literal.. of something along the lines of: “Long-live the majestic Tsar Peter Alexeyevich” or something along those lines.. I really cannot get all of it. It is a very odd written form in mixed language.

2.) The blade is very broad, with a wide fuller running at a weak angle. This supports an idea that this blade was originally (presuming it was reground) much, much, larger originally before being re-ground into a ‘cutlass’ shape. Further on what is now the false-edge (relative to the ‘knuckle bow’) we have some deformation near the tip which is quite common in strikes against bone. This makes the blade look actually used rather than purpose-built as a forgery. It looks like the blade/hilt was then disassembled and flipped afterwards.

3.) The hilt is rubbish. It looks like something made recently, and with the bright high polish against the dark, and the warmth of the wood… very recently made and artificially aged then ‘polished’. If this was found in a Malaysian flee-market.. I would hazard that the manufacture is probably local. The wood type here might tell you.

4.) The double eagle beneath the crown… this looks, if my point 1 is correct, like an Imperial Russian Coat of Arms.

5.) Solingen gives us a place of manufacture.

The first point was the longest and most difficult for me to go through, but is the only thing which made me consider this as not an out and out forgery, and thus come up with the other points. It is too weird and linguistically muddled to be an Eastern/Asian forgery. The high and low points are cut in by hand, it looks like… Getting out those words was a real challenge.
To conclude, after considering, and searching under these five point parameters.. I am pretty confident that the blade is a cut down broadsword blade (palash) of the Russian Dragoons under the reign of Peter the Great.

Here is an original, that sold at Sotheby’s, in 2014: http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogu...t.493.html

I was very pleased to see that it had script writing in the same form, with an Imperial Eagle above Solingen… and of all things, a very similar inscription on the reverse! ‘Vivat Zaar Peter Alexeits 1711

Another, similar, blade in original condition can be found here: http://romanovrussia.com/antique/palash-blade-1710/

Cheers,
Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 489

PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Hadrian, yes the hilt is completely wrong. I'm guessing it was a later addition, maybe for use as a prop or something. This was found in Mongolia by the way, which makes the Russian connection more plausible.

The tip is a little misleading, it hasn't be reshaped or ground in anyway, it's just broken like that.

The palash lead looks good. The remainder of the blade is broad and the inscription does feel cut in. I'm guessing that somehow a broken blade was recycled for theatrical use or something similar.

EDIT: A search shows very similar blades and claims that blades exist dated at least between 1710-1718.

http://romanovrussia.com/antique/palash/

http://romanovrussia.com/antique/palash-blade-1710/

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogu...art-n08302

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
View user's profile Send private message
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Ian, yes those are the swords that I concluded above I'm guessing this blade is from! Happy

They were made with a half-basket or a crosshilt.. originally. I see I misread/misrecalled your initial post saying Mongolia... That does indeed improve the Russian connection!

Personally, if you bought the piece.. I would strip off the rather ghastly hilt, and keep/display it as a bare blade. It's nice that the engraving is whole/complete. I reckon you got it as quite a steal? I can't hazard at the value of a (broken) bare blade too accurately... But I reckon, given the complete engraving, and rarity of the sword type it would retain some value.. Perhaps a grand? Maybe a bit more. I'm not sure how desirable they are.. but the astronomic prices of the complete swords and (full) bare blade seems a good indicator.

Best,

Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 489

PostPosted: Mon 18 Sep, 2017 1:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Hadrian,

That's the plan, get the hilt off when I get home and maybe frame it as a display piece. I only paid ~$80 for it so no big loss in any case.

Edit: Hadrian, looks like the guard is correct (but obviously damaged), the pommel is still wrong though. Found these in a Russian journal article about these swords. The article claims these blades were re-hilted a few times over time. This is an original configuration:







Here is a re-hilted example with an even closer matching inscription:

http://carl.kulturen.com/web/object/36827

I've even seen one hilted as a schiavona.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
View user's profile Send private message
Hannes Vereecke




Location: Belgium
Joined: 27 Jul 2016

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri 22 Sep, 2017 4:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know much about swords in general, but I might be able to help a bit with the insription (since I'm dutch).

The place Solingen is located in Germany, however it's strongly connected with the City Gouda, which is located in the Netherlands.

So the text is probably part old dutch/german.
I do believe the edges have been ground down and some of the letters are missing, so I think this is what's on it now:
Viual sijn zaax se maijest Peter alexeuils 1715

The first part doesn't make any sense to me, but the second part "maijest Peter Alexeuils" I believe might be "majesteit Peter Alexeuils?"

Majesteit in dutch means king. So it might say (blablabla) majesteit and then the name and date 1715.

Hope I could maybe help a little bit Happy

If someone here better in old writing could give a better representation of the letters used (since I'm not sure on some), I might be able to translate it a bit better.
Also the word "sijn" probably is "zijn" in dutch en is often used together with the word "majesteit", like so: Zijne Majesteit, this is sort of a titel sort of speak like "the king"
View user's profile Send private message
Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 489

PostPosted: Fri 22 Sep, 2017 6:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Hannes, I'm also Dutch haha Wink

It's definitely 'Zaar', which is an old Dutch word and still used in dialects, but I think in this case it's just 'Tzar'. I still don't know what 'se' stands for.

Vinat sijn zaar se maijest Peter Alexeits 1715.

I think the gist of the translation would be:


Long live the tzar, his majesty Peter Alexeits

Vinat is latin of course, the rest is some kind of old German dialect.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
View user's profile Send private message
Hannes Vereecke




Location: Belgium
Joined: 27 Jul 2016

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri 22 Sep, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cool Happy

If it does indeed say Peter Alexeits, then this refers to Peter I aka "Peter The Great", Russian Tsaar from 1682 till his death in 1725.

It's very similar infact to sword currently on ebay for $20.000:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Russian-Sword-Pa...1680111034

Although there are some distinct differences at first glance.
Perhaps the one you have is a former broadsword which was damaged/broken and was refitted with a new handle?
Just trowing out some ideas out there.

I also attached a .pdf from similar swords, text is in russian though.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Need help identifying sword dated 1715.
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum