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Pedro Paulo Gaião




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Apr, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject: Adoption of Longbows outside Anglo-French World         Reply with quote

I was reading Ian Heath's "Armies of Middle Ages vol.1" and came across some passages about Navarre's use of "archers" during its 14th century's campaigns against Castille and France. Then I wondered if longbows were actually used by navaresse troops as they were used among their gascon relatives, since I don't have records of longbowmen in other spanish kingdoms.

Now I got the question: did the longbow actually find military use in other places besides England, Burgundy and France? I'm not talking about expeditionary forces like those of the Black Prince' at Castille, Hawkwood's White Company in Italy or the Anglo Gascon contingent at Aljubarrota (Portugal), rather, I'm talking about its use among local troops or employed mercenaries. Did we have evidence for that? Also, I know the french king employed some scottish archers as guardsmen, so I believe that would have great popularity at Scotland too.






This is a german picture called "The Festival of the Archers", made by the Master of Frankfurt. However, I didn't find any clue of bows of any type being used in Germany/Holy Roman Empire by 14th and 15th centuries, with exception of a1400's illustration of a bohemian archer in King Wenceslau's bible (which holds an eastern european bow, in any case).
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Graham Shearlaw





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PostPosted: Sun 09 Apr, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While it's a bit of an oddity, I've been lead to believe that while yew grow in Spain, the yew can lose some of it mechanical property's in the heat.
35 centigrade is apparently the upper limit.

While i can't find the primary source for the above claims, one Dr Henry Blyth mentioned in
(Structures by J.E.Gordon, 1978 ISBN 0-14-21961-7)
I can point you to an extract of the book which is worth a read. Here
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Apr, 2017 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a depiction on an altarwing from Esztergom, Hungary, showing a long/flat bow. 1500/1510.

The scottish used their bows quite long, even the men of Rob Roy, google it.


http://mek.oszk.hu/01600/01652/html/oltar8.jpg
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Apr, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Heavy self bows made from yew have been used all over Europe since the Mesolithic period. It isn't a particularly efficient weapon. It only started to become effective in battle when the English developed tactics to use it en masse and reorganised their entire society to produce an abundance of archers. Even then the longbow was only useful in a very limited set of tactical situations. They had to be on the defensive. They had to be able to select the terrain. They had to have time beforehand to entrench. They had to convince the enemy to charge a prepared position. That enemy had to be attacking from one direction only. Even after all this, it was only effective for a couple of centuries or so. It shouldn't be a surprise to learn that nobody else tried seriously to develop English longbow tactics.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Apr, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Graham Shearlaw wrote:
While it's a bit of an oddity, I've been lead to believe that while yew grow in Spain, the yew can lose some of it mechanical property's in the heat.
35 centigrade is apparently the upper limit.


Spanish yew came from higher altitudes where it is a lot cooler. In any case, temperature is not the main issue. The main issue is how rapidly the tree grows. In hotter temperatures the trees grow faster, which reduces the strength of their timber. It gets worse in plantations where the environment is manipulated to encourage even faster growth.

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Graham Shearlaw





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PostPosted: Sun 09 Apr, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While the idea that English army's had thousands of men in green tight firing away at the plate armour knights of France and each knocking then down dead at 200 yards, a dozen time a minute gets fanciful once you think about it.

Its always reminding our selfless of the reality, that most of the archers where of little threat to anyone from the dark ages on.
Any one with a shield was mostly safe inside shield wall, and arrow fire more for moral and suppression of enemy.

As for detail on the growth of yew trees or it handing of heat, i can't find any more details.
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Iagoba Ferreira





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PostPosted: Mon 10 Apr, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I haven't read any Navarrese document mentioning more than a dozen mercenaries. That's an irrelevant number of them. And there are documents about having to go to Bayonne to buy arrows, so any real warfare use of them would depend of importing ammunition. Probably they were on the payroll for fashion.

Few days ago was the 650th of Nájera and another combat in which "english" longbowmen took part (sir Nigel will tell you about it Wink ). Add Aljubarrota and that's all I know about their use.

The smaller combat, at Inglesmendi, before Nájera, was a defeat. About 500 archers, men at arms and knights pinned by a high number of light cavalry (ginetes) and beaten by dismounted heavy cavalry.

Seems that here we weren't impressed by the longbow. Any bow it's a rarity in the inventories. Anyway, the crossbow was so omnipresent and used that the few laws about them forbade their use in build up areas to avoid accidents. No need to impose training!
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Hamish C




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Apr, 2017 2:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In a best case scenario, an arrow from a longbow might not have been much of a threat to a knight armoured in full plate. There are plenty of video's with re enactors shooting heavy warbows at tempered steel modern reproductions of breastplates, and the arrow bounces of harmlessly leaving little more than a scratch.
However most combatants were not armoured in full plate, and barely any full plate of the day was heat treated successfully, even those owned by the likes of Henry the VIII.
Mail, with a padded jack underneath certainly improves your chance of survival, from arrows but I wouldn't want to rely on it. Sometimes arrows don't penetrate very deeply, but sometimes they break the rings and they do penetrate.
Shields, yes they certainly help. but you can't hold one up over head all day. Not all shields are equal. A heavy crossbowmans pavise would stop an arrow but would not be very mobile. Many hand held shields were made of soft woods or light hardwoods, a bodkin from a heavy bow would easily piece one of those enough to damage the arm beneath.
Some horses could have decent protection depending upon the period, but once again we are talking about a best case scenario. Like full plate for knights all but the richest couldn't afford it. A horse is a real weak link for knights or cavalry. Take the horse down and a knight loses the majority of his power, and mobility.

As for yew, yes it does lose some power on a hot day. Maybe 5lbs draw weight, on a 50-60lb bow. I have never measured it with a scale, but you can noticably tell the difference, it becomes easier to pull, and cast is not as good. Nevertheless it doesn't make a bow useless, far from it. Say a 130lb bow drops 10lbs drawweight from heat, its still a 120lb bow, more than enough to do devastaing damage. Regular temperatures of over 35 degrees in Europe would have been pretty uncommon, so I don't think this would have been a big consideration to not use a longbow
Converesly on a very cold day a wooden bows poundage will increase. Pretty common in early mornings, in winter.

Yes low elevation yew grows quicker than high elevation yew, and on average is usually not as dense. A bow from light yew made to the same dimensions as a high elevation yew bow will usually be much lighter in draw weight.. However this can be remedied by making the a bow from lighter low elevation yew, a little wider and or longer, problem solved. Even poor yew is still yew and is better than most other commonly available timbers in the middle ages that can make a bow.

I think the main trouble with the longbow was the amount of skill and practice needed to pull the heavy bows. A crossbow would need much less training, but they have their own limitations too.
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Will S




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Apr, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hamish C wrote:
.. However this can be remedied by making the a bow from lighter low elevation yew, a little wider and or longer, problem solved. Even poor yew is still yew and is better than most other commonly available timbers in the middle ages that can make a bow.


Shorter, not longer. The longer the bow, the lower the draw weight.

Poor yew is poor bow timber. Ash, elm, holly, hazel and plum all make far, far better bows than poor quality yew. In fact good quality Wych Elm, plum or ash will outshoot many excellent yew bows of the same weight.

The reason yew was so popular is because it was quicker and easier to make bows from them, and the resulting bows were less affected by humidity than whitewood bows, which is crucial in European countries. Yew is the perfect beginner bowyers wood, as yew bows can be tillered poorly, and take great knots, cracks and rot comfortably, as well as aggressive violation of the growth rings on the back of the bow. Whitewood bows will not tolerate this at all, so require far more skill and time to make.
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Hamish C




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Apr, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Will, Yes you are right if you "pike " a long bow it will increase the draw weight. However after a certain point, it increases the danger of the bow breaking, as less wood is forced to do more work. Even before that happens its efficiency can degrade despite the increase in drawweight due to increased stringfollow.
However by increasing the width of the stave you have more wood to stiffen the stave and allow you to get a heavier bow, than if made to the same dimensions as a high elevation yew bow. If you also add extra length at the same time increases the durability of the bow, and it is less likely to break. If it doesn't make an acceptable weight, you can risk piking the tips.

It sounds like you might be a bowyer as well, if so you know its more art than science, with experience a good bowyer will learn what they can get away with and what they can't. Extra length gives you a bit more room to move until you see how the stave reacts to being trained into a bow.

I'm not sure who is was(maybe Saxton Pope?), but in the late 19thC bows at least one Mary Rose bow was replicated and the replicas draw weight was only around 80lbs. I don't know whether it was reproduced in taxus baccata or taxus brevifolia or how many rings per inch( general indicator of fast or slow growth). In the late 20thC when modern diving equipment allowed the recovery of much more items from the Mary Rose, the replicas reproduced showed a much wider range of physical dimensions(length, width and depth) and draw weights, up to about 150lbs.

In some circumstances a whitewood bow with a design simlar to that of a yew warbow (relatively narrow and deep) can made to perform as efficiently as a good yew bow. If a stave of ash etc is much denser than average(some specimens can be almost twice as dense as an average piece), has some reflex to counteract stringfollow, or has been heat tempered, you can get excellent performance, and warbow draw weights. Whether period bowyers were aware of these factors is uncertain. Historically(Toxophilus) we know that yew was prefered over other woods, and whitewoods"mean bows" were always treated as less desirable weapons. An average whitewood stave made narrow and deep,without reflex or heat treatment will follow the string more than a yew. Modern bowyers(as well as some ancients) are aware there are better designs for white wood bows, like a wider, flatter, shallower limb. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that bows of this type were used in the middle ages or renaissance for hunting let alone warfare.
I believe there are also no actual surviving finds of any white wood warbows, so we don't really know how they looked, despite the fact that for every yew bow made English bowyers had to by law produce several others from mean woods.
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Hamish C




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Apr, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Will, Yes you are right if you "pike " a long bow it will increase the draw weight. However after a certain point, it increases the danger of the bow breaking, as less wood is forced to do more work. Even before that happens its efficiency can degrade despite the increase in drawweight due to increased stringfollow.
However by increasing the width of the stave you have more wood to stiffen the stave and allow you to get a heavier bow, than if made to the same dimensions as a high elevation yew bow. If you also add extra length at the same time increases the durability of the bow, and it is less likely to break. If it doesn't make an acceptable weight, you can risk piking the tips.

It sounds like you might be a bowyer as well, if so you know its more art than science, with experience a good bowyer will learn what they can get away with and what they can't. Extra length gives you a bit more room to move until you see how the stave reacts to being trained into a bow.

I'm not sure who is was(maybe Saxton Pope?), but in the late 19thC bows at least one Mary Rose bow was replicated and the replicas draw weight was only around 80lbs. I don't know whether it was reproduced in taxus baccata or taxus brevifolia or how many rings per inch( general indicator of fast or slow growth). In the late 20thC when modern diving equipment allowed the recovery of much more items from the Mary Rose, the replicas reproduced showed a much wider range of physical dimensions(length, width and depth) and draw weights, up to about 150lbs.

In some circumstances a whitewood bow with a design simlar to that of a yew warbow (relatively narrow and deep) can made to perform as efficiently as a good yew bow. If a stave of ash etc is much denser than average(some specimens can be almost twice as dense as an average piece), has some reflex to counteract stringfollow, or has been heat tempered, you can get excellent performance, and warbow draw weights. Whether period bowyers were aware of these factors is uncertain. Historically(Toxophilus) we know that yew was prefered over other woods, and whitewoods"mean bows" were always treated as less desirable weapons. An average whitewood stave made narrow and deep,without reflex or heat treatment will follow the string more than a yew. Modern bowyers(as well as some ancients) are aware there are better designs for white wood bows, like a wider, flatter, shallower limb. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that bows of this type were used in the middle ages or renaissance for hunting let alone warfare.
I believe there are also no actual surviving finds of any white wood warbows, so we don't really know how they looked, despite the fact that for every yew bow made English bowyers had to by law produce several others from mean woods.
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Will S




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Apr, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've made a good few replicas of Mary Rose bows, from a wide range of English yew. One example (an exact copy of MR80A0451) was made of fairly low quality yew and came out around 150lb. With better timber it would be far heavier.

Replicas have been made recently using excellent quality yew and they were around 185lb or 190lb. It's a topic for a different thread really, but as better timber is now becoming available the estimated draw weights are shooting up. I've seen 200lb bows made from English yew that aren't any bigger than some of the MR bows.

I've also made bows using meanewood staves that are around 150lb, from ash along with slightly lower hazel bows (130lb) and know a few bowyers who've quite comfortably pushed holly, hazel and ash over 150lb. You don't need a much different profile than yew provided you tiller carefully.

It's worth noting that the MR bows aren't narrow and deep, but the opposite. They're wider than most people think and quite flat. Not flat in the sense of a flatbow, but a good bit flatter than their width. The average dimension in the handle for a medium sized MR bow is 36mm wide and 32mm deep, with an oval or galleon cross section.

There's a lovely Wych elm bow that came from the Mary Rose which, once replicated by Jeremy Spencer was around 140lb.
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Hamish C




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PostPosted: Wed 12 Apr, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice work Will, keeping the history alive.
Where's all the good wood coming from Italian Alps, Spain?
All of the yew I have used comes from the USA, or Canada, the most rings per inch I have used is around 60, and even those aren't too common. 20-40 rpi seem the most available. They still make fine bows, but admittedly I don't specialize in warbows or super heavy hunting bows.
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Will S




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Apr, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It comes from anywhere, really. My personal preference is English yew but that may be because I have access to a huge amount of it for free. Paying for wood seems odd to me, so I don't work with stuff from other countries much. As far as I'm aware, English yew is just the same as every other yew from every other country - if the timber is healthy and strong, the bow will be too! At the moment a lot of bows are being made from German and Swiss yew, but it just depends who's looking and who's able to cut the stuff really.

I've always found ring count to be fairly meaningless as well - some really coarse looking stuff will make fantastic bows, and plenty of dark, tight-grained wood ends up being poor for heavy bows.
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




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PostPosted: Sun 16 Apr, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote:
Here is a depiction on an altarwing from Esztergom, Hungary, showing a long/flat bow. 1500/1510.

The scottish used their bows quite long, even the men of Rob Roy, google it.

http://mek.oszk.hu/01600/01652/html/oltar8.jpg


It is quite interesting to note, since Hungary always used composite bows, at least for what the evidence shows, anyways.

Dan Howard wrote:
Heavy self bows made from yew have been used all over Europe since the Mesolithic period. It isn't a particularly efficient weapon. It only started to become effective in battle when the English developed tactics to use it en masse and reorganised their entire society to produce an abundance of archers. Even then the longbow was only useful in a very limited set of tactical situations. They had to be on the defensive. They had to be able to select the terrain. They had to have time beforehand to entrench. They had to convince the enemy to charge a prepared position. That enemy had to be attacking from one direction only. Even after all this, it was only effective for a couple of centuries or so. It shouldn't be a surprise to learn that nobody else tried seriously to develop English longbow tactics.


I have to disagree. Sagas and other later scandinavian sources didn't diminish the importance of the bow at all. It seems that even some heroes and huscarls were famous for their use of the longbow (which was a bit different from the latter 14th century longbow from British Isles). Needless to say that those bows, along with the s, were essential in the scandinavian successes during the Baltic Crusades.

From what I learned, the english developed the longbow by the 13th century to make it stronger, so it wasn't the very same longbow of earlier times. About longbow's limited employ, the welsh had been successfully using it before the english, and using other tactics: at skirmishing and surprise attacks, often at close range instead of the latter english usage at France. Prince Henry (latter Henry V) was pierced by an welsh arrow during a battle against a welsh rebelion

And although the longbow didn't had any use among major spanish kingdoms, he have evidence that the Portuguese, since Saint Nuno Alvares (1360 - 1431)'s wars against the Castilians, adopted similar tactics of the English, but using semi-professional men troops (Besteiros do Conto) instead of archers. They also used such tatics in Nuno's invasion of Castile and portuguese invasions of Morroco by early 15th century.

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
I haven't read any Navarrese document mentioning more than a dozen mercenaries. That's an irrelevant number of them. And there are documents about having to go to Bayonne to buy arrows, so any real warfare use of them would depend of importing ammunition. Probably they were on the payroll for fashion.
[....]
Seems that here we weren't impressed by the longbow. Any bow it's a rarity in the inventories. Anyway, the was so omnipresent and used that the few laws about them forbade their use in build up areas to avoid accidents. No need to impose training!



I'll put the text about the archers in navarrese employ:

https://scontent.fgig4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17952650_1164058020371930_7480196429578628831_n.jpg?oh=f34f927f86608392cf83298544961ffc&oe=59865E6B


About the usage of bows in spanish armies, well there are actually evidence for that in castillian (perhaps even aragonese) artistic evidence by 15th century; but their bows are related to andalusian/berber bows, not eastern or northern ones. Portuguese armies had any bow presence at least from early 14th century and beyond, because of the kingdom's centralization (all non-noble's arms and came from King's own arsenals)
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Iagoba Ferreira





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PostPosted: Sun 16 Apr, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know of two or three mentions of "arcos turquescos" or "turkish bows", but almost all (except the Toledo's cathedral choirs carvings) of the depictions are bowmen killing st. Sebastian...

I have to correct myself about the number of English Archers in Navarrese service: there were 30 in 1378. Still very few, and they dissapear after that.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Apr, 2017 2:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
I have to disagree.


We discussed this before. The English warbow was not particularly heavy. We know that warbows from Middle Eastern and Asian cultures have similar draw weights. The English did nothing with the bow except to arrange their society so that they could produce more people capable of shooting them.

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Pedro Paulo Gaião




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PostPosted: Mon 31 Jul, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iagoba Ferreira wrote:
I know of two or three mentions of "arcos turquescos" or "turkish bows", but almost all (except the Toledo's cathedral choirs carvings) of the depictions are bowmen killing st. Sebastian...

I have to correct myself about the number of English Archers in Navarrese service: there were 30 in 1378. Still very few, and they dissapear after that.


I didn't find any picture of these carvings, but managed to find a popular illustration from 1470's Majorca:
http://warfare2.netai.net/15/St-George_by_Ped...ldiers.htm

They match what a berber or turkish bow would look like. About english archers in Navaresse employ, in this same 1378's source it's mentioned that one of the two gascon commanders mentioned had "55 men-at-arms plus 50 archers" under his authority. That's certainly something.


Dan Howard wrote:
Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
I have to disagree.


We discussed this before. The English warbow was not particularly heavy. We know that warbows from Middle Eastern and Asian cultures have similar draw weights. The English did nothing with the bow except to arrange their society so that they could produce more people capable of shooting them.


But that wouldn't explain why some countries left older style of bows to adopt the longbow after the english (I could thing of Scotland and parts of continental europe, for example) or used them alongside crossbows. Large numbers of longbowmen are indeed a thing, but I also found mentions of written references for hundreads of "archers" in 14-15th century Holy Roman Empire (from Heath's Armies of Middle Ages vol. 2). But I don't have a clue with they were employed in static formations along crossbowmen or had other battlefield roles.

----

Also, I made discoveries about the first painting: although the painter is called "Master of Frankfurt", he's actually flemish and never left his land to Germany. The festival he's describing was actually a common thing in the region, as it reads:

Museum voor Schone Kunstep Antwerpen wrote:
In the early 14th century, archers guilds were established in cities across Flanders and Brabant. These associations would regularly organise festivals. Archery contests provided not only useful practice for guild members, but also entertainment. Such events would invariably conclude with a feast where flutists, drummers and minstrels played music, rhetoricians performed plays written for the occasion, and jesters provided general entertainment. This painting is a rendering of the Festival of the Archers organised by Antwerp's four archers guilds: the ‘old’ and the ‘ young’ Arbalest and the ‘old’ and the ‘young’ Longbow. The Longbowmen have gathered in an enclosed garden.

Source: http://www.kmska.be/en/collectie/highlights/Schuttersfeest.html
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 31 Jul, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
But that wouldn't explain why some countries left older style of bows to adopt the longbow after the english (I could thing of Scotland and parts of continental europe, for example)

Did they? We don't know how or even if their warbows changed over the centuries. We only know that they started using more of them to try and counter the English.

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Pieter B.





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PostPosted: Tue 01 Aug, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's a bunch of references to archers during the Crusades and if my memory serves me right a few skeletons which exhibit telltale signs of archery have been found at a castle at St. Jacobsford.
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