Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Early 16th century longsword scabbards Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep, 2016 10:20 pm    Post subject: Early 16th century longsword scabbards         Reply with quote

Can anyone share some historical images of scabbards for early 16th century longswords with me? I'm looking for historical artwork or extant originals to find inspiration for scabbard details, chape and locket designs, and suspension styles.

Things like the image below but hopefully with more detail.



Thank you.



 Attachment: 124.99 KB
[ Download ]

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lloyd Winter




Location: Los Angeles
Joined: 27 Aug 2011

Posts: 172

PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For suspension tips you might look at the Durer St Eustace altarpiece and the Death the Knight and the Devil engraving. Both are pre 1520 as I recall.
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 10:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It might be a bit early for your taste, but Dürer's Paumgartner Altar has another pretty good representation of an early 16th century scabbard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Albrecht_D%C3%BCrer_-_Paumgartner-Altar_-_Alte_Pinakothek_M%C3%BCnchen.jpg
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 11:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

St George and the Dragon paintings are a pretty good source for scabbards at this time. For instance, the famous "St. George and the Dragon" by Vittore Carpaccio from 1502: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Vittore_carpaccio%2C_san_giorgio_e_il_drago_01.jpg

Found another one by Vittore Carpaccio. It's hard to say if the sword is a long sword; the grip is pretty short, yet my impression is that a two point suspension is usually for a long sword, rather than a single hander:
http://www.vittorecarpaccio.org/St-George-and...large.html

Here's from Raphael, between 1504 to 1506: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Saint_george_raphael.jpg

There's another from Mair of Landshut, who lived from 1455 to 1520. I don't know the date on this painting, and it looks like it could be 15th century, but the style of scabbard also seems similar to some of the other early 16th century paintings: http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1...279289.jpg
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 11:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know the exact dating on this image, but the style of sword certainly looks to be 16th century. Whether it's early enough though is another story: http://www.meryratio.hu/sites/default/files/s...0-10_1.jpg
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2016 2:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Loving this already...
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2016 8:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are two-point suspensions more commonly found on long sword scabbards intended for cavalry wear? I notice that nearly all of the mounted images show this form of suspension, while images of long swords worn by men on foot often seem to lack the two point attachments.
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Lewis





Joined: 19 Apr 2014

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 359

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2016 9:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some of Lucas van Leyden's engravings have great detail for clothing and weapons. He lived circa 1494-1533... these two engravings are usually dated around 1507 or 1508, when he was only 14 years old? Eek!




http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/351298
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/364649
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,908

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2016 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm going to post a number of things from this period that I know are not quite what you're looking for, but will be good to gather here. I'm still looking, but here's something that might be of special interest--an elite sword with a decorative locket and tooled scabbard. No suspension shown here, unfortunately, but I would assume that the simple knot most often seen on scabbards of this period and culture would not work. Staple or ring on the back of the locket, maybe, meant to ride on a belt hook? Or, possibly, not meant to be worn, but carried in the crook of the arm as a ceremonial weapon. (?)

German, 1510 (via ImaReal)



 Attachment: 88.39 KB
1510.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,908

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2016 10:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A few more from ImaReal. My search range for these was 1510-1550.

Note that in some of those martyrdom images, the sword scabbard is on the ground, with suspension clearly visible.

FWIW, I have used the single knot on all my scabbards, and find them to work extremely well. It holds the weapon at the correct angle and allows the belt to rest loosely on the top of the right hip.



 Attachment: 470.45 KB
7013433.JPG


 Attachment: 453.79 KB
7012857.JPG


 Attachment: 388.26 KB
7012739.JPG


 Attachment: 56.73 KB
loop.gif


 Attachment: 393.16 KB
7004322.JPG


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2016 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Are two-point suspensions more commonly found on long sword scabbards intended for cavalry wear? I notice that nearly all of the mounted images show this form of suspension, while images of long swords worn by men on foot often seem to lack the two point attachments.


I've noticed this, too, but I don't know the answer. I also haven't looked at other suspension systems and who is depicted with them.

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,908

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2016 10:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd love to try a fabric belt like the one in the last image above. You can pick up inexpensive, colorful silk scarves of good length from street markets in Italy. I assume they can be found online as well.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,908

PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep, 2016 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The one that's a simple frog with gilt iron (?) fittings really grabs my attention. I think it might be meant to match a belt hook. It's another type I'd love to try. The scabbard attachment is dead simple and ripe for tooling, metal applique, tacks, gilding, etc. I would pair this with a gilded iron or brass hook and a broad, decorated belt like the one in the background. What a set that would be!

Cornelis Tromp posted the images of a hook mechanism for a messer suspension: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?...&pp=30

The other image is Peter Johnsson messer of this period with a variant of the single-point suspension. That knot or slide arrangement might be like what we're seeing in some of the ImaReal images I posted above.



 Attachment: 175.48 KB
14957_168_212-1.jpg


 Attachment: 67.36 KB
attachment-2.jpg


 Attachment: 98.5 KB
attachment-1.jpg


 Attachment: 194.62 KB
PJmesser.gif


 Attachment: 281.78 KB
[ Download ]

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Eric LeClair




Location: Vancouver
Joined: 03 Oct 2016

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon 03 Oct, 2016 2:09 pm    Post subject: Wow         Reply with quote

That's just an incredible share @Sean Flynt Thanks for sharing such awesome pics.
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,908

PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2016 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Wow         Reply with quote

Eric LeClair wrote:
That's just an incredible share @Sean Flynt Thanks for sharing such awesome pics.


Here's the gold mine, Eric: http://tethys.imareal.sbg.ac.at/realonline/

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Early 16th century longsword scabbards
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum